93 points of cybernetics for only 2

[Someone404]

So I come in search of clarification about a rule. TL;DR there's this guy in our ultra-tech game who's trying to take 93 points of cybernetics for only two points because it's signature gear. Is this legal?

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Someone404

So I come in search of clarification about a rule. TL;DR there's this guy in our ultra-tech game who's trying to take 93 points of cybernetics for only two points because it's signature gear. Is this legal?

That depends entirely on how you are running cybernetics. There is no "
one true way", only a way that is consistent with your campaign.



I personally favor the 2 point signature gear, because points from cybernetics tend to be somewhat overshadowed by the gear other people can buy with money, but it does depend on the genre and campaign concept.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Someone404

So I come in search of clarification about a rule. TL;DR there's this guy in our ultra-tech game who's trying to take 93 points of cybernetics for only two points because it's signature gear. Is this legal?

Your wording implies that you are only letting characters buy cybernetics for points and not for cash. In that case, the short answer is no, it is not legal for him to buy it as Signature Gear for 2 points. That doesn't mean that he can't buy it as Signature Gear though. Signature Gear has two pricing options, one for gear paid for with money, and one for gear paid for with character points.

For Signature Gear bought with character points, you pay points for it as if it were an Ally. Cybernetics would count as non-sentient when pricing it as an Ally, so the point total can exceed the usual 150% of starting PC points without becoming a Patron, see Exception under Ally's Power in Ally (p.37) for pricing progression. 93 points is a bit less than 2/3 of the PC's starting points if the character is built on 150 points, which falls between 50% and 75% of the character's starting points and is therefore bought at the higher 75% base price level, or 3 points, which is then modified for Frequency of Appearance. Frequency of Appearance (p. 36) tells us that Constant is the appropriate frequency for implants and the like, at 4x the base cost. Thus the cost of the cybernetics as an Ally would be 4 x 3 = 12 points, which becomes the cost of the cybernetics as Signature Gear. If he buys the cybernetics as Signature Gear, he does not have to buy it as an Ally as well.

Legally, he can buy 93 points worth of cybernetics as Signature Gear, but the cost is 12 points, not 2 points.

[Inky]

Is there a reason why the things his cybernetics allow him to do aren't just Advantages that he has? Are they removable or something?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Someone404

So I come in search of clarification about a rule. TL;DR there's this guy in our ultra-tech game who's trying to take 93 points of cybernetics for only two points because it's signature gear. Is this legal?

If you are charging points for cybernetics rather than money that isn't remotely legal. If you are charging money for cybernetics it's fine, as long as the numbers work out.

[GnomesofZurich]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

For Signature Gear bought with character points, you pay points for it as if it were an Ally. Cybernetics would count as non-sentient when pricing it as an Ally, so the point total can exceed the usual 150% of starting PC points without becoming a Patron, see Exception under Ally's Power in Ally (p.37) for pricing progression. 93 points is a bit less than 2/3 of the PC's starting points if the character is built on 150 points, which falls between 50% and 75% of the character's starting points and is therefore bought at the higher 75% base price level, or 3 points, which is then modified for Frequency of Appearance. Frequency of Appearance (p. 36) tells us that Constant is the appropriate frequency for implants and the like, at 4x the base cost. Thus the cost of the cybernetics as an Ally would be 4 x 3 = 12 points, which becomes the cost of the cybernetics as Signature Gear. If he buys the cybernetics as Signature Gear, he does not have to buy it as an Ally as well.

Legally, he can buy 93 points worth of cybernetics as Signature Gear, but the cost is 12 points, not 2 points.

I have never seen it suggested anywhere in GURPS that Signature Gear should be priced as an Ally; what is the source of that? It seems a really strange approach to me buying cybernetic implants as an Ally.

Signature Gear in Characters is a simple conversion of points per $X of value, as well as providing "plot protection".

RevPKitty introduced a house rule that Signature Gear doesn't provide any funds towards gear but only serves as plot protection, and this was later officially included in After the End and DFRPG. This is my preferred approach.

To address the OP, and as others have said, the GM (I get the impression that's not you) needs to figure out how he's handling things. Options include:

• Cybernetics always costs both points and cash.
• Cybernetics cost points at character creation, and both points and cash after character creation.
• Cybernetics only cost cash; since this encourages characters to buy high levels of Wealth, which may not match the desired tone of the campaign, one may want to cap starting Wealth and set up a conversion rate to trade cash for points at whatever ratio is going to work and won't break the game. This could be specified as cash to be used on anything, or only for cybernetics. With this approach there is the potential to acquire a lot of implants, so I suggest ensuring that you also pay attention to the surgeries needed, recover times, etc.
• Cybernetics costs points, and are basically just dressed-up advantages.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by GnomesofZurich

I have never seen it suggested anywhere in GURPS that Signature Gear should be priced as an Ally; what is the source of that? It seems a really strange approach to me buying cybernetic implants as an Ally.

<snip>[/LIST]

Since you ask, in the second paragraph of Signature Gear (p. 85). The relevant quote is "For anything built as a character, use the rules under Allies (p.36) instead. It is up to the GM whether to treat android companions, faithful steeds, custom vehicles, etc. as equipment (with a cash cost) or characters (with a point cost)."

I'm not quoting the entire paragraph for copyright reasons, but suggest you read the entire entry to see that I haven't taken it out of context. The "custom vehicle, etc." part would cover cybernetics bought with points.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Since you ask, in the second paragraph of Signature Gear (p. 85). The relevant quote is "For anything built as a character, use the rules under Allies (p.36) instead. It is up to the GM whether to treat android companions, faithful steeds, custom vehicles, etc. as equipment (with a cash cost) or characters (with a point cost)."

I find your interpretation to be peculiar.

The relevant phrases to me are the words "instead"at the end of the first sentence. and "or" in the second sentence.

The interpretation that seems clear to me is that if (for example) a Knight has a faithful steed said steed may be bought as equipment for Gurps $ only
and it's just a horse. If you lose it buy another. Equipment comes and goes as in-game events dictate.

You could instead build the faithful steed as an Ally for character pts and if your Ally dies you get a new Ally as a replacement. It is a permanet part off your character sheet.

Build the faithful steed as Signature Gear and The horse is still just a horse but you don't lose it to random events or you always get a new one when needed. It is a permanent part of your character sheet.

I would have never thought to fuse Ally and Signature Gear and I don't think it's even necessary.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Since you ask, in the second paragraph of Signature Gear (p. 85). The relevant quote is "For anything built as a character, use the rules under Allies (p.36) instead. It is up to the GM whether to treat android companions, faithful steeds, custom vehicles, etc. as equipment (with a cash cost) or characters (with a point cost)."

It's saying if it's an Ally built as a character, use the rules for Allies instead of Signature Gear. An Ally is a character separate from your own, run by the GM. Your bionic arm is not an Ally; it is part of you.

It's not saying that Signature Gear built with character points is priced as an Ally.

[Someone404]

Originally Posted by Inky

Is there a reason why the things his cybernetics allow him to do aren't just Advantages that he has? Are they removable or something?

It’s because the GM is allowing us buy cybernetics with money or points