Attribute costs

[FeiLin]

I was reading Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes, and I've been playing around with the attributes and derived stats, to adress some - not issues but - thoughts I have. I feel like the attributes are too cheap, and would like them to be more of a narrative tool, in order to promote skills, talents and other advantages. As a secondary concern, I feel there's a slight mismatch between calculated values and my subjective view, namely that Basic Speed is based on HT and that Basic Move is directly correlated to it. Another concern is that IQ is too central too the definition of a character, as it is used as a base for social skills, mental tasks (Will) AND the ability to perceive the surrounding (Per). Lastly, the asymmetry of cost is a slight esthetic thing that bothers me.

To make a long process short, I'm thinking of using the half-stat defaulting from Pyramid 65, connect Per to HT, make IQ, DX and HT all worth 20 CP/level, make Will and Per 10 CP/level, HP and FP 5 CP/level, as well as make Basic Speed (DX + Per) / 4 and Basic Move instead (DX + HT) / 4. For half-stats, that takes care of making attributes less desirable for skills (erring a bit on the expensive side for this purpose is fine; if a player wants to be the smartest person alive, go ahead, but it might not be the fastest/most efficient way to the most powerful mage). I also intend to have combat more deadly and track FP more rigorously, so I'm also fine with increasing the other attributes/characteristics. Are there any consequences that might prompt me to rethink? In general, it feels like making stuff more expensive wont risk breaking the game as much as making stuff cheaper.

I'm also considering decoupling Will and Per, while reducing IQ and HT by half (and possibly break out HP and FP also, but leave ST and HT at 10 CP/level, judging they will be quite useful in dangerous situations), but that would completely mess up symmetry if DX is left at 20 CP/level while the others are at half (or half again). Is there a way to solve this? Halving the cost seems a bit too arbitrary, especially since it's so crucial to both skills and other derived stats critical to combat and other situations.

[AlexanderHowl]

I have long been of the opinion that the key to addressing the imbalance between attributes/secondary characteristics and skills/techniques is to make skills/techniques better, not to make attributes/secondary characteristics worse. For example, you could reduce any penalties by one per 4 CP spent on a skill and any penalties by one per 1 CP spend on a technique. Therefore, a character with 40 CP in Lifting would reduce the penalties to extra effort rolls by 10, allowing such an individual to accomplish phenomenal lifts with a reasonable chance of success.

[Kesendeja]

What we did for my game, was decouple Per and Will from IQ. IQ cost 15 per point, Per was based on Health and Will cost 5 per level.
We also limited attributes to a max of 16 for humans. (Incedently the artical "Knowing your own strength" supported this.

[Otaku]

I was thinking of "balancing" things out in a different manner. Of course, I don't have Power-Ups 9. At least, not yet.

Some of the changes I was contemplating may be mutually exclusive:

1. Fatigue Points start out equal to (ST+HT)/2.
2. Hit Points start out equal to (ST+HT)/2.
3. Basic Speed becomes its own Attribute
4. Combine ST and HT into a single stat (Physique?)
5. Appearance becomes based on HT.

I was going to explain that last one, but I realized I might want to make it it's own post. Before I do that, if anyone knows of some alternate Appearance rules already published, or even just from here on the forums, that I ought to know, please PM me. Or if it seems on topic, post here. ;)

Re-reading the original post, almost nothing I said works as an answer to FeiLin's questions, nor did I provide any real response to FeiLin's own suggestions. The one relevant part, making Basic Speed its own thin, will be discussed in a later post. The same for actually addressing what FeiLin proposed.

[DangerousThing]

OK, I use a small mishmash of house rules for stats taken from all over the place.

A new stat, Quintessence, is used for all psychic/magical stuff, including defense. This is 10 points/level. QI is also used for willpower. This decouples willpower from IQ. I do this because I really hate the trope of uber-intelligent psions and mages. Plus it allows a barbarian to have high willpower and low IQ.

Perception is based on HT, unless it is analyzing, in which case it is still based on IQ. This allows for non-mages to have a good danger sense, and allows for high IQ mages who don't automatically detect ambushes.

When a person gets low in FP or QP (Quintessence Points) they have problems. Sometimes major problems. The levels for problems at 1/3, 1/4, and 0. I'm thinking of making it 1/2, 1/4, and 0. Basically, get to 0 or below, and staying conscious is a problem.

The lower the FP/QP, the longer it takes to regain them. My basic thought is to recover 1 FP when you've used n FP it takes 5 minutes * n * n of rest. I haven't playtested this one at all.

[RedMattis]

I personally feel decoupling IQ from Will and Perception is good enough on its own.

In order to make characters with more limited focuses than straight DX/IQ I use Talents liberally. The guidelines from the basic set are decent here, though I've tweaked them somewhat. Large Talents are otherwise generally inferior to just buying DX/IQ. (DX has an effective cost of 15/points level, IQ 20/points level with the Will/Perception rule)

All talents must be approved by the GM. No Muchkin'ing.

Narrow Category [5 points level]
Small category of skills closely related in function and use.
e.g. All one-handed balanced weapons. all unbalanced weapons. All unarmed. etc.

Medium Category [10 points level]
A medium list of skills comparable to a "Wildcard!" skill.
e.g. All melee weapons. All guns. All science skills. All piloting/driving/riding. All social skills.

All skills from a small profession [10 points level]
e.g. Footman: Sword, Axe/Mace, Shield, Soldier, etc. Engineer: Electronics, Engineering, Math, Programming, etc. Trader: Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, Merchant, etc.

Huge Profession/Category[15 points level]
Skill list comparable to straight IQ or DX.
e.g. Warship Captain: Swashbuckling, navigating, using cannons, intimidating people. Half-bonus to somewhat related stuff such as: merchant, geography, armory (ship cannons). Druid: All Magic skills, Naturalist, Herb Lore, Survival, Geography, Weather Sense, Animal Handling... Half-bonus to Staff, Climbing, Hiking, etc.

If you want "new attributes" you can basically just create 'talents' for those attributes and let them be used for contested rolls and such (10+<Magic Talent> to resist being fooled by an Illusion!). There is nothing inherently special about DX & IQ after all, you can just split the skills however you wish. Personally I stick to Talents simply because it is more customization.

Using Talents like this also gets around much of GURPS old problem with Advantages being priced based on Value, while Skills prices are based on Real-World difficulty. If Math (Applied) + Math (Quantum Math) + Engineering (Quantum Engines) + ..., feels absurdly expensive for what it actually lets the player character do you could simply put all of them under a "Quantum Engineer [5/points level]"-talent, or a larger "Engineer [10 point/level]"-talent and then put a single point in each.

[FeiLin]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I have long been of the opinion that the key to addressing the imbalance between attributes/secondary characteristics and skills/techniques is to make skills/techniques better, not to make attributes/secondary characteristics worse. For example, you could reduce any penalties by one per 4 CP spent on a skill and any penalties by one per 1 CP spend on a technique. Therefore, a character with 40 CP in Lifting would reduce the penalties to extra effort rolls by 10, allowing such an individual to accomplish phenomenal lifts with a reasonable chance of success.

I'm not sure I understand: any penalty, so in effect just double the effect of CP spent on skills, but only up to the skill level? It sounds intuitively messy to keep track of, since you'd need to make a (small) math exercise everytime you use a skill with penalties or have an extra variable per skill, would you not?

Also, I'm not sure I agree; why would it be better to improve skills and talents? Wouldn't that risk upsetting the balance with other advantages? My view is that attributes are a more static element (of GURPS, at least, which has a plethora of other customisation options that are just begging to be exploited). I see them more as a narrative tool than a power-gaming optimising variable. I want the box "How to Select Basic Attributes" on B14 to actually mean something. Moreover, in general, I think that making something more expensive (especially something as omnipresent as attributes, and particularly IQ and DX, with their hosts of skills and secondary characteristics tied to them) will be limited in unbalancing or breaking the game to those elements (by making them specifically lower). With a linear progression that GURPS has, that's better, imo. Although, in case it's fully balanced (or nearly, at least), it might be worth it mechanically to just leave attributes at 10 to improve skills instead, so I don't want to go too far.

Although, I should clarify in relation to your statement: apart from "rebinding" the attributes/characteristics/derived stats internally (and using the half-stat default), I'm tanking about tuning their cost (progressions) as a means of "making them worse"; not completely overhaul their concepts or functions.

But, feel free to elaborate on the opposing view.

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

Perception is based on HT, unless it is analyzing, in which case it is still based on IQ.

That sounds like it's a skill with a different cost, then.

Originally Posted by Otaku

4. Combine ST and HT into a single stat (Physique?)

That seems more complicated than making appearance into an attribute akin to a slimmed Charisma from other games. ST and HT are quite different and are used in different contexts. HT is not so much muscular strength but more constitution (but I assume you know as much, and have your reasons for contemplating this change).

Originally Posted by RedMattis

In order to make characters with more limited focuses than straight DX/IQ I use Talents liberally. The guidelines from the basic set are decent here, though I've tweaked them somewhat. Large Talents are otherwise generally inferior to just buying DX/IQ. (DX has an effective cost of 15/points level, IQ 20/points level with the Will/Perception rule)

Huge Profession/Category[15 points level]
Skill list comparable to straight IQ or DX.
e.g. Warship Captain: Swashbuckling, navigating, using cannons, intimidating people. Half-bonus to somewhat related stuff such as: merchant, geography, armory (ship cannons). Druid: All Magic skills, Naturalist, Herb Lore, Survival, Geography, Weather Sense, Animal Handling... Half-bonus to Staff, Climbing, Hiking, etc.

If you want "new attributes" you can basically just create 'talents' for those attributes and let them be used for contested rolls and such (10+<Magic Talent> to resist being fooled by an Illusion!). There is nothing inherently special about DX & IQ after all, you can just split the skills however you wish. Personally I stick to Talents simply because it is more customization.

Using Talents like this also gets around much of GURPS old problem with Advantages being priced based on Value, while Skills prices are based on Real-World difficulty. If Math (Applied) + Math (Quantum Math) + Engineering (Quantum Engines) + ..., feels absurdly expensive for what it actually lets the player character do you could simply put all of them under a "Quantum Engineer [5/points level]"-talent, or a larger "Engineer [10 point/level]"-talent and then put a single point in each.

That's an interesting approach. It could almost replace attributes entirely, by instead giving each player a set of functions that need to be addressed, either by being included in a talent or by simply breaking out the functions as lesser talents or advantages. Fright Checks would be one, death checks another. Depending on it's relevance, it could conceivably (especially as an advantage) cost anything from 1 CP/level).

Although, I'm more concerned about the narrative aspects. To me, attributes represent inherent qualities and traits, whereas talents are learned (almost social, given the reputation aspect). I guess you could fix that with a special category of talent or simply convert the functions of attributes into disadvantages. But then again, what's the purpose of attributes, or skills or talents, or even (dis)advantages?





Great discussions! Although, I haven't gotten too much direct feedback on the initial concerns: would

• ST/IQ/DX/HT/Will/Per all decoupled and at 10 CP/level,
• HP/FP at 5 CP/level (but still related to ST/HT),
• Basic Speed equal to (DX + Per) / 4 and Basic Move instead equal to (DX + HT) / 4,
• half-stat defaulting (basically replace controlling attributes with the same attribute / 2 + 5)

cause any issues?

[Otaku]

To begin with, let me apologize for messing up. In my excitement to discuss Attributes, I provided answers to the opposite question. >_< I edited my previous post accordingly. To avoid further mistakes on my part, I'm going to dissect your original comment, breaking down your stated purpose into bite-sized chunks so I don't choke on them again. XP

Please bear in mind that I have never read Power-Ups 9. So my answers do not reflect its content, unless some of it has filtered down to me through others using it on these forums. Even then, I'm not consciously aware of it. I also realized that just explaining the one "good" change I proposed, is going to take up enough room I'd better save the rest for a later post. Hopefully, I'll actually have a chance to get to said later post. ;)

Originally Posted by FeiLin

...to adress some - not issues but - thoughts I have. I feel like the attributes are too cheap, and would like them to be more of a narrative tool, in order to promote skills, talents and other advantages.

Again, I literally did the opposite, finding ways to make Attributes more or a bargain, not less. >.>

Originally Posted by FeiLin

As a secondary concern, I feel there's a slight mismatch between calculated values and my subjective view, namely that Basic Speed is based on HT and that Basic Move is directly correlated to it.

Here, I partially agree. Partially? The one suggestion I made earlier, which I still believe is would be quite worthwhile given your aims, is to split Basic Speed from anything else, turning it into another Attribute. Most of Basic Speed's relationships with other Attributes (plus stuff like Per) are really a two-way street. So, if we are already willing to exceed for core Attributes and want to keep Attributes all equally priced without making them too much of a bargain, splitting Basic Speed off into its own Attribute seems completely justified.

I realize this means redoing some key relationships and/or formulae in GURPS, but I also believe the end result is worth it. This also lets you have Basic Speed based Skill rolls... which I believe make sense under the proper circumstances.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by FeiLin

• ST/IQ/DX/HT/Will/Per all decoupled and at 10 CP/level,
• HP/FP at 5 CP/level (but still related to ST/HT),
• Basic Speed equal to (DX + Per) / 4 and Basic Move instead equal to (DX + HT) / 4,
• half-stat defaulting (basically replace controlling attributes with the same attribute / 2 + 5)

That's not far from my list of changes,except I keep DX and IQ at 20 and don't do the half-stat defaults.

ST, damage, and HP, on the other hand, are radically different from RAW (write up for that in progress). Long story short, damage and HP are uncoupled from ST for cost purposes, but must be within a narrow range determined by ST. I'm working on a way to alter my damage system so that I can just recouple it directly to ST for simplicity's sake, but so far it seems to be eliminating a little complexity at character creation by adding a lot of complexity every time the dice are rolled (a chart with four rows becomes one with nineteen).

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by FeiLin

• ST/IQ/DX/HT/Will/Per all decoupled and at 10 CP/level,
• HP/FP at 5 CP/level (but still related to ST/HT),
• Basic Speed equal to (DX + Per) / 4 and Basic Move instead equal to (DX + HT) / 4,
• half-stat defaulting (basically replace controlling attributes with the same attribute / 2 + 5)

cause any issues?

While I want to address your list of changes bullet point by bullet point... it ain't working. A lot of this is new to me, or confusing. Yeah, I probably shouldn't have weighed in on the thread at all, but lurked to learn in quiet humility. >.>

I already spoke up, though, so I may as well help where I can, and the first thing is pointing out that this is a massive amount of changes. I get it, I'm the uninitiated on things like half stats, but even with all of the changes being intended for the same campaign, we could probably have at least a short thread's worth of discussion on several of the individual or paired changes suggested.

Which is my way of saying that, when I tried to break it down, even focusing on what I am pretty sure I understand, I was getting an elephantine post. See how long this is? Now imagine at least that per point, and often two or more times per point. So I'm going to suggest two things.

First we worry about balancing the changes against the going CP costs, then when that seems right, we come back and see if we can improve the aesthetics. Meaning, don't worry about making things all share the same CP cost until after their balanced, and it becomes a matter of "What can I add/subtract to maintain the balance while raising/lowering the CP cost."

Oh, and consider explaining this Basic Speed/Basic Move change you mentioned earlier. I get what you're doing, but I don't really grasp the why. Maybe I'm just too in love with making Basic Speed its own thing?