Interaction between Armor Divisor, DR, armor DR and COVER DR?

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Everybody knows that Cosmic (Irresistible Attack) ignores DR. So far, so good and clear.

Now, imagine that the target is wearing armor, which provides DR. Logically, C:IA ignores that too. Still looks rather clear.

Now, imagine that the target is also behind some cover DR. Which should be ignored too . . .

Except that now we realize that cover DR partially consists of the cover's HP. Same with armor, once you realize that armor has HP too, and gets ruined from suffering too much damage.

So the main question is:
What happens to those HPs? If they are ignored, then how does the attack differentiate between them and the target's HP? If they are damaged, then why doesn't this reduce the final damage to the target?

Oh, and before anybody says 'Cosmic is magic', remember that this applies to Armor Divisors too.

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

[alaph]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Greetings, all!

Everybody knows that Cosmic (Irresistible Attack) ignores DR. So far, so good and clear.

Now, imagine that the target is wearing armor, which provides DR. Logically, C:IA ignores that too. Still looks rather clear.

Now, imagine that the target is also behind some cover DR. Which should be ignored too . . .

Except that now we realize that cover DR partially consists of the cover's HP. Same with armor, once you realize that armor has HP too, and gets ruined from suffering too much damage.

So the main question is:
What happens to those HPs? If they are ignored, then how does the attack differentiate between them and the target's HP? If they are damaged, then why doesn't this reduce the final damage to the target?

Oh, and before anybody says 'Cosmic is magic', remember that this applies to Armor Divisors too.

Thanks in advance to all who answer!

I think you are thinking about this all wrong.

First off ask yourself WHY? C:IA ignores DR. Does the attack simply pass through the DR or does it IGNORE the DR and go straight to the affected entity as it were?

Could you target armour with C:IA and effect the HP of said armour without worrying about the DR? In this case the armour itself is the entity of effect, in the case of a person wearing armour the armour is not the entity of attack and thus is completely ignored when assessing damage.
Its like a regular spell, you simply need to know WHOM you wish to effect and not worry about whether or not they are in an atomic bunker wearing plate armour. You pay for this by tacking a penalty to skill roll when you can't see them but the effect has nothing to do with their cover or armour.

Does this make sense? Does this help? Did I miss something?

[ravenfish]

I don't see the problem. Said attack is great at getting through HP without losing effectiveness, but no better than default at causing damage while doing so.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by alaph

I think you are thinking about this all wrong.

First off ask yourself WHY? C:IA ignores DR. Does the attack simply pass through the DR or does it IGNORE the DR and go straight to the affected entity as it were?

Could you target armour with C:IA and effect the HP of said armour without worrying about the DR? In this case the armour itself is the entity of effect, in the case of a person wearing armour the armour is not the entity of attack and thus is completely ignored when assessing damage.
Its like a regular spell, you simply need to know WHOM you wish to effect and not worry about whether or not they are in an atomic bunker wearing plate armour. You pay for this by tacking a penalty to skill roll when you can't see them but the effect has nothing to do with their cover or armour.

Does this make sense? Does this help? Did I miss something?

Yes. You're missing the fact that Armor Divisors have the same issue.

[pawsplay]

Either the attack ignores DR except for providing a penalty to see the target, or the attack burns through HPs without regarding to DR, depending on the attack. Pick one that fits for the power.

[chimchim]

i re read the over penetration rules to see if i could find a solution to this issue.
The over penetration rules state you must calculate the covers DR. Now on a cosmic version you could say it ignores DR so all cover DR is ignored. For armour divisor though you should calculate the cover DR and apply the divisor to that thus reducing the damage by a like amount. Ie if the cover DR was 20 and the AD was say 5 then the damage is reduced by 5 and penetrates through.
I apologise for the rambling nature of the post and please note i do not consider my self am expert lol.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Except that now we realize that cover DR partially consists of the cover's HP. Same with armor, once you realize that armor has HP too, and gets ruined from suffering too much damage.

No it doesn't. Not in GURPS, at least. The designers are 100% against tracking armor damage, as it is "un-fun".

So the main question is:
What happens to those HPs? If they are ignored, then how does the attack differentiate between them and the target's HP? If they are damaged, then why doesn't this reduce the final damage to the target?

HPs don't enter into the equation unless you're using the Overpenetration rules specifically, in which case . . . well, use the Overpenetration rules as written. If not, then cover DR is just DR. Stack it with the target's DR and then ignore it or divide it as appropriate.

So yes, shooting a 6d(10) attack through a thin concrete wall to get to someone will leave a hole each time, but there's really no point in tracking the wall's exact HP -- it's just serving as cover, after all. If you have a need to track the cover's HP (say, someone's shooting through the ship's engine), then use the Overpenetration rules -- the cover takes X points of damage, and the blowthrough is applied to whoever's behind it.

[alaph]

Originally Posted by Molokh

G
Oh, and before anybody says 'Cosmic is magic', remember that this applies to Armor Divisors too.
!

So now wait, are you saying that C:IA is the same as an armour divisor? That assertion is inherently flawed. C:IA represents IGNORING armour all together while an AD represents an attack that does a more efficient job of penetrating armour and has the innate notion of interacting with the armour.

Cosmic, ignores armour---- no armour interaction
Armour Divisor ---- armour interaction

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by alaph

So now wait, are you saying that C:IA is the same as an armour divisor? That assertion is inherently flawed. C:IA represents IGNORING armour all together while an AD represents an attack that does a more efficient job of penetrating armour and has the innate notion of interacting with the armour.

Cosmic, ignores armour---- no armour interaction
Armour Divisor ---- armour interaction

C:(IA) is essentially Armor Divisor (Infinity). It even gets downgraded by Hardened just as if it is an Armor Divisor - check the rules. Furthermore, the observation about armor and walls having HP (which, by the RAW - Overpenetration) is affected by attacks penetrating them (to say otherwise would be to claim that armor and walls are indestructible). Just substitute AD(10) for C:IA and check the calculations - the effect still exists, but with C:IA it is more obvious.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

The rules for overpenetrating a target are to treat a person as giving cover DR equal to their HP, and I think the example even explicitly mentioned applying armor divisors to that... I think.

If so, definately seems to be a case for the divisors to apply to cover DR as well.

However, I would say it largely depends on the nature of the attack, as a special effect of sorts. For example, a HEAT round would have its AD(10) against a plate of metal it strikes, but even though almost all damage would penetrate, it would not have the AD against another plate 10 feet past it. A solid armor-piercing round very well might, though. I don't think such minor differences would be enough to have to pay for it, as there's benefits to not overpenetrating a target, too.