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Old 05-12-2021, 01:07 AM   #21
hal
 
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
There were towns with fairly universal schooling in medieval Europe. One world-building decision should be whether the society has cheap-to-write-on quick writing materials such as paper, or just slow-to-write-on, expensive ones such as parchment. Another would be local attitudes to writing: is it seen as a special skill or something every teenager has to learn to memorize enough love songs to woo their special someone like one society in South-East Asia?


GURPS Banestorm (just to use as an example) suggests Aura, Divination, the "identify a magic item amongst baubles" test, and various quack methods. If we assume that the average mage has IQ + Magery around 11, an advantage of these methods is that they don't require learning a specific spell just to identify mages.
Once you identify how you want to do it, you can easily enough work out the ramifications of your decisions. One thing that might be interesting is to see if mageborn blessed NPC's are even INTERESTED in casting spells. If Mageborn are granted automatic freedom - then perhaps there will be a +2 reaction modiifier for reaction rolls? Bear in mind, harvesting ALL possible mageborn is but part of the problem. I don't want to discourage you from pursuing that line of reasoning, but then again, if you want to go the route of saying that ALL of them are available, that's fine. Just identify what is necessary to do that, and then deal with the social issues as well as contractual issues etc.

For instance, if parents are losing children (their safety net for old age!) without compensation, they may refuse to let their children test, or they might tell the children to deliberately fail the test. If children are ripped from their families, how might that affect things?

I will likely create a single "Village" for playtesting purposes via VB.NET before I build the 10. Expect to see the playtest version of the village show up before the end of this week.
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:21 AM   #22
hal
 
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

After seeing Steve's questions recently, I had to laugh ruefully...

Ok, for purposes of this example, I'm going to be mean and say...

Think Southern England, circa 1200 AD using:

two field rotation. Three crop rotation wasn't until a bit later if Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social Change in England c.12001520 (Cambridge Medieval Textbooks) is to be believed. This book is one I'd recommend for anyone to pick up if they have an interest in history for use with their games. I'd buy it used if at all possible from Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i1

All villages will have water sources in the form of a river nearby. Whether those are commercial waterways is debatable.

ANY Village that starts to accrue population to where it approaches town sizes are off limits for purposes of this discussion only because these prototype towns are all going to specialize in something. They will be supported by the very villages we're working to use with this thread. Later on...

THAT might be a good topic for a future thread we all can work with.

Now, if you REALLY want to have fun?

http://columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/que...t_id=7001M-PDF

That is a map depicting England, circa 1190. That can be used with Worminghall if you'd like. Also, if you want, I can dig into my DOMESDAY BOOK for specific village information by name. Just remember, that is data that will be 100 years (or so) out of date for the 1190 map.

In any event, the idea is to try the simple approach first with the 10 villages, then work outwards from there.

Note that when I put out the "coin" values later on, that will be 100% of those with Magery. Whether you FIND them all, or they're bound to the land as serfs or are freeborn, will be interesing. The interaction between the Church and Authorities with respect to mages committing crimes, or crimes being committed against them might be worth considering as well.
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Old 05-12-2021, 02:00 AM   #23
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
After seeing Steve's questions recently, I had to laugh ruefully...

Were you expecting this to be easy? ;-)


Three field rotation showed up in the late middle ages.


OK. The terrain, climate, and basic biomes are like southern England, before they cut down most of the forests to build their navy. 13% of land area was forest in 1200AD. That will be used for construction, shipbuilding, vehicles (wagons), firewood, charcoal, furniture, tools, and whatever else anyone can think of.



Is pollarding and/or coppicing known? What about daisugi?



Oh, another important question: Besides showing up in humans as magery, does the ambient mana have any other effects on the environment? How did the ability to interact with the mana fields evolve? Are there bacteria that use mana as an energy source (manaphiles)? What about insects? Higher animals? Plants?
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:09 AM   #24
hal
 
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

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Were you expecting this to be easy? ;-)
When it comes to gamers, nothing for any GM is ever easy. ;)


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Originally Posted by StevenH View Post
Is pollarding and/or coppicing known? What about daisugi?
As in Pollard Hay? I'm guessing not. Coppicing was known since Roman times, and that would be something that Woodwards would be aware of. Each "fief" when generated, will have woods attached to the Lord for his use (hunting rights, woods etc). Rights to hunt are jealously guarded and poaching even of rabbits was often frowned upon in medieval times. Even rabbits could be treated as semi-domesticated animals whose warrens were placed near damns and mill raceways. For purposes of this "medieval sim Villages", I don't think it will come into play much.

As for daisugi. **delicate cough** I largely suspect not - at least, not in England circa 1190 AD.


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Originally Posted by StevenH View Post
Oh, another important question: Besides showing up in humans as magery, does the ambient mana have any other effects on the environment? How did the ability to interact with the mana fields evolve? Are there bacteria that use mana as an energy source (manaphiles)? What about insects? Higher animals? Plants?
Since this was intended to model in part, the early Yrth saga as first written in GURPS FANTASY 1st edition, plus GURPS FANTASY 2nd edition - which ultimately became GURPS BANESTORM in GURPS 4e - I would say that manaphiles are not part of the equation. Mana based "mutations" of actual creatures are of course, open to interpretation, as the early rules for Alchemy did include rules for harvesting mana organs of monsters etc.

Since settled Villages tend to take a dim view of predators or nuisance varmints - chances are very good that short of wandering predators or varmints approaching the Farm, we're likely not going to see all too much of this for this simulation/world building exercise. That doesn't mean you can't introduce concepts and ideas as optional - for purposes of "discussion". My hope is that people who partake in this ADD to it as contributors, not as players who take my thoughts as words of law.

Right now, I've got the code for generating magery value for individual mageborn NPC's. Next step will be for me to create a data grid view container that holds all information on the NPC characters (be they mageborn or mundane born) where we have ages, genders, date of expected deaths (assuming magic is not uitlized to save their lives or keep them alive longer than usual)

Here is where I'm looking to go:

Genders: 48% of newborns are born Male. 52% are born Female.

Date of Death generated per the FAMILY TREE PDF (I will link to that in another post)

Adult IQ: I'm thinking of using 7+2d6/2 (round down) for generating IQ values for our Mageborn. Why 2d6/2 rounded plus 7 instead of 1d6+7? Most of the IQ will tend to hover around 10 due to the bell curve effect of rolling 2d6. Net result will give a range around 8 to 13. Since I can generate stats for each NPC Mageborn, this would be handy for those who want to know how to spend their "coins". Yes, it can very well come to happen that you may get a Magery 3 IQ 8 NPC...

More as I reach said milestones on coding.

By the way...

Here is a sample of five runs that generate the Magery using non-magery 0:

Magery 1: 44 Magery 2: 7 Magery3: 0
Magery 1: 42 Magery 2: 9 Magery3: 0
Magery 1: 44 Magery 2: 6 Magery3: 1
Magery 1: 41 Magery 2: 9 Magery3: 1
Magery 1: 46 Magery 2: 5 Magery3: 0


This is what I generate when allowing for the new fangled Magery 0 instead:
Magery 0: 47 Magery 1: 4 Magery 2: 0 Magery3: 0
Magery 0: 44 Magery 1: 7 Magery 2: 0 Magery3: 0
Magery 0: 47 Magery 1: 4 Magery 2: 0 Magery3: 0
Magery 0: 41 Magery 1: 9 Magery 2: 1 Magery3: 0
Magery 0: 41 Magery 1: 10 Magery 2: 0 Magery3: 0


In both cases, this presumed that there were 51 mageborn to flesh out.

I largely suspect, in answer to whswhs' original question, that we might be better off using the original "non-magery 0" set up. On the flip side, we can look at the effects that having Magery 0 being factored in, spread over 10 villages, would by statistical probability - keep all of those Magery 2 and Magery 3 spell practitioners to a relatively LOW number. This would have an overall effect on what spells are even KNOWN at the village level by Village based mages.

So - this is progressing at a reasonable clip where I can present the data for manors, plus populations, plus generated NPC mageborn (whether trained or untrained) and even perhaps leave you folks with the question "what do we do with the untrained mages even if we can't train them."

In the meantime - anyone who wants to see the actual code or wants access to these VB.NET exe files, are more than welcome to them.
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Old 05-13-2021, 05:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

General "vote" time for those interested:

I can generate full stats for NPC Mageborn where roughly 52% of the general population will have IQ's between 9 to 11. The process is 16-2d5 - generating ranges between 6 and 14. GURPS Template Toolkit Characters gives a range of attributes saying to the effect that attributes of 6 are crippling and character would not adventure, to 7, which is poor, to 8&9 being below average, 10 being average, etc. The HIGHEST I'd want to see any "NPC" mageborn is IQ 14 which is deemed to be the upper end of Exceptional. Since this will occur as often as "crippling" statistically speaking, that should be reasonably unlikely to occur.

The general idea here is that younger apprentice mageborn will have few character points to spend on spells, day to day social skills (area knowledge etc) - while 50 year old characters will be able to accrue extra experience towards spell casting knowledge and social skills by virtue of having lived longer.

Exceptional IQ mages will only occur in 4% of the mageborn statistically speaking. If using Magery 0 as part of the mageborn creation rules - then mageborn with magery 0 will make up the bulk of the general population with maybe a smattering of 1 or 2 who may have something other than magery 0. If using the original make up of Magery from before Magery 0 was introduced, the bulk of mageborn will be Magery 1, with perhaps a few non-1 magery levels. Out of 10 test runs, I thnk maybe once did I see Magery 3 (which I suspect is how it should be).

So - now's the time to voice your thoughts and/or concerns before I finalize the coding and start to generate NPC mageborn. :)
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

Player character mages almost always have above average IQ. But if you assume magery and IQ are not correlated, there will be a fair number of mages who are average or lower. So consider a mage with IQ 9 and Magery 1. They need to spend 8 points to get one spell at level 12, defined as basic professional skill. That's 1600 hours of training, or 6400 hours of work experience (if they can get anyone to give them a job!).

Perhaps we can suppose that a journeyman mage can get hired by a fully trained mage to help out. The seven years of a typical journeymanship will require just over 900 hours a year, or roughly half time spent on casting that one spell, under supervision. There are going to be a fair number of mages who know only one or two spells. I believe GURPS Fantasy has a passage about magical "jobs" that can be supported by knowing just one spell. You'd have to think about what spells are useful enough in a village setting to be worth learning that way, though.

And are the one-spell wonders staying home in their villages, or wandering from village to village casting the spell when it's needed, or living in a town where people come who need magic?
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Old 05-13-2021, 07:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

Two comments:


1) 4% of the population having IQ 14 feels really high. a spread with more dice would make me feel more comfortable. like say 18 - 4d3. That will still be high, at 1%, but it will make me feel better.

2) I like centering DX and IQ at 10.5, not 10, but that's personal preference. Letting us potentially raise IQ through trying to get them to study hard is probably enough.
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

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For Bless Plants, the optimal choice is to space castings at the centers of a grid of hexagons. There will be some overlap, and thus some wasted effort, but the amount of overlap will be minimal. Then you fit the furrows inside the hexagons, as much as possible.
In Harn, as in much of medieval Europe, most fields are divided into selions, so it should be possible to align the fertile strips along hex rows, I'd think.

Also, do priests have any divine powers, in this setting?
In Harn, the priests and priestesses of the local fertility goddess, Peoni, handle blessings of fields, and the hierarchies of all the religions don't like interference in everyday life by mages.

If the setting has active religions with miraculous abilities, then the relationship between them and the mages will need to be addressed.

Heck, if the priests/priestesses have the hearts and minds of the people and the lords, the issue will need to be addressed.
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Old 05-13-2021, 08:57 AM   #29
hal
 
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

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In Harn, as in much of medieval Europe, most fields are divided into selions, so it should be possible to align the fertile strips along hex rows, I'd think.

Also, do priests have any divine powers, in this setting?
In Harn, the priests and priestesses of the local fertility goddess, Peoni, handle blessings of fields, and the hierarchies of all the religions don't like interference in everyday life by mages.

If the setting has active religions with miraculous abilities, then the relationship between them and the mages will need to be addressed.

Heck, if the priests/priestesses have the hearts and minds of the people and the lords, the issue will need to be addressed.
While Harn will be a HEAVY influence on the TL 3 aspects, HARN's prohibition on open practice of magic in the relatively large numbers of mageborn would be incompatible with the intent of this "exercise". Mageborn being the focus, means that we're going to ignore the Priests, their potential for blessings etc, and concentrate strictly on the spells and application of GURPS MAGIC spells as written.

So - those who want to use the original 1st edition spell lists to see how it impacts on a TL 3 Medieval fantasy world, are welcome to do so. Those who want to utilize GURPS CLASSIC spell lists, are also welcome to do so. Those who want to utilize the GURPS MAGIC spell lists for 4e, are equally welcome to do so.

The idea here will be to see what effects the mageborn will actually have - with the target of tryingn to attain as close to a TL 3 society/technology as possible without going to TL3+2 or TL 3+5 or what have you. If you can see that the spells are pushing it WAY past TL3+0, then - well, we will have learned something.

;)

If by applying spells as written, people start to find it distorts things BADLY - the question is - how badly?

If the numbers of mageborn are not sufficient to turn magic into an alternate technology because there isn't sufficient resources to do so - THAT would be interesting.

As a person, I have "blind spots" - creative stones in my soil of my mind so to speak. Others might have similar blind spots, where together, we see ways around potential issues, or spot issues that the other might miss.

So, let's see where this goes JUST using stock standard Mageborn characters.

I largely can see where EricTheRed is going where he'd rather see IQ 14 be less likely to come up on random rolling.

If ANYONE has suggestions about where I should be drawing the limits percentage wise of a given IQ being a given percentage of the general population, I'm all ears.

If I had my way, I'd go with 13 being the upper limit, but in deference to those of you here on the list, there may very well be "Exceptional" IQ characters who are NPC's as well. Note that I'm using the TEMPLATES book as a guideline here.

But, whswhs brings up a good point, so I'll answer his question next.
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Old 05-13-2021, 09:20 AM   #30
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Default Re: Mageborn are like Coins - Worldbuilding TL 3

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Player character mages almost always have above average IQ. But if you assume magery and IQ are not correlated, there will be a fair number of mages who are average or lower. So consider a mage with IQ 9 and Magery 1. They need to spend 8 points to get one spell at level 12, defined as basic professional skill. That's 1600 hours of training, or 6400 hours of work experience (if they can get anyone to give them a job!).

Perhaps we can suppose that a journeyman mage can get hired by a fully trained mage to help out. The seven years of a typical journeymanship will require just over 900 hours a year, or roughly half time spent on casting that one spell, under supervision. There are going to be a fair number of mages who know only one or two spells. I believe GURPS Fantasy has a passage about magical "jobs" that can be supported by knowing just one spell. You'd have to think about what spells are useful enough in a village setting to be worth learning that way, though.

And are the one-spell wonders staying home in their villages, or wandering from village to village casting the spell when it's needed, or living in a town where people come who need magic?
Remember how this thread is titled "Mageborn are coins"?

Let's say for the sake of argument, that our mageborn has an IQ of 14, and Magery 2. Such a character would have gotten the all important lucky roll of a 01 or 02 on percentile rolls. Then, rolling a 31, we discover that our mageborn is a she. Rolling against 1d1000, we find she is 17 years old. Hidden from view is her fated death date. The fated death date is when she dies of ordinary mundane things unless somehow, magic is brought to bear to save her life. A HT roll will determine if cause of death is due to a failed HT saving roll, if not, the it is likely an accidental death instead. Rolling for the exact hour of death is also a possiblity should people desire that much detail for these NPC Sim's...

;)

But - having said all of that - here is the question whswhs asked in an indirect way...

Where do you think that young girl is going to be practicing her magic? If the Lord doesn't release her from her forebear's contractual obligation, it will be up to him to decide who she marries, whether she can leave the manor to spend time in the nearest town. It will be up to him to say "Hey my good fellow" to her father and continue with "I hereby permit you to trade 1 day of owed labor on your part, for every day labor she works on my behalf. Since you owe 90 days labor, if she works for me for 90 days, that cancels your labor obligation for this year."

Now, in terms of the Lord's manor - he just lost 90 days of manual labor tending his fields. Will her 90 days of labor be worth the lost manual labor? If she works at keeping his family healthy, he just might do that. On the flip side? He may very well offer her a position in his own household, letting her eat at his table, and be paid 3 silver pennies wages per day - with a monthly wage equal to a struggling wage in GURPS terms. Keep in mind, she's getting room and board on TOP of all of that.

She has no option to work for another noble. She has no option to live elsewhere unless the lord allows it. She has no option to marry unless the Lord permits it. Even then? The Lord may very well demand that the the husband must move to his manor/village instead of her moving to her husband's.

So, yeah, there may very well be competition for the GOOD mages. Lords get first dibs on their serfs. Freeborn however, are a whole different ball of wax.

Now, imagine a Parish priest who feels that the young girl is blessed by God to do Godly things and wishes to join the church as a nun? THAT my friends, is something YOU are going to have to hammer out. As the guy who proposed this, I'm just setting parameters and pointing things out. YOU are the world bulding individuals who are trying to put all of the parameters into focus. When you asks "Can we have this" and I give an answer based on historical information - do with it as you will. I"m NOT the GM.

And being human, I"m also fallible ;)
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