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Old 02-27-2011, 12:38 AM   #21
Malenfant
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Only a few of human's perfectly logical motives are something a dog would understand; not even all of a humans illogical motives are something a dog would understand.
That's not a good comparison though - dogs aren't exactly capable of reasoned logical thought.

I think modern, scientifically educated, rational humans have the context and ability to figure out anything eventually. Nothing is "inscrutable" or "beyond our understanding", IMO. We'll come up with some framework for whatever we encounter eventually.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:37 AM   #22
Hans Rancke-Madsen
 
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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Originally Posted by Malenfant View Post
I think modern, scientifically educated, rational humans have the context and ability to figure out anything eventually. Nothing is "inscrutable" or "beyond our understanding", IMO. We'll come up with some framework for whatever we encounter eventually.
I think the Ancients are primarily a plot device that allows a referee to futz around with time and space and probability and astronomy.

I was very unimpressed with the original Secret of the Ancients. I keep meaning to read this new one, but I haven't gotten around to it yet, so I have no opinion on it yet. But "the Ancients did it" does not need to have a rational logical reasoning to it. Well... does not always need to, anyway. I admit to preferring some scrutable motive behind Ancients shenanigans (even if I don't necessarily let the players in on it). But if I need -- really need -- the Ancients to, say, mess up a star system for me or supply the weird gizmo of the adventure, I'll settle for "Ancients experiment" or even "no one can guess" for a motive.


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Old 02-27-2011, 03:14 AM   #23
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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That's not a good comparison though - dogs aren't exactly capable of reasoned logical thought.
Neither is the majority of humanity, it being a learned skilled rather than anything inherent.

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I think modern, scientifically educated, rational humans have the context and ability to figure out anything eventually. Nothing is "inscrutable" or "beyond our understanding", IMO. We'll come up with some framework for whatever we encounter eventually.
I disagree.

Besides, to form a predictive model of Grandfather's behavior requires access to Grandfather (or information on Grandfather, and who is going to be the one collecting that, hmm?) over an extended period of time. Not something I imagine the PCs are going to have very much of.

And that's all assuming that Grandfather is sane.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:01 AM   #24
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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Originally Posted by Malenfant View Post
That's not a good comparison though - dogs aren't exactly capable of reasoned logical thought.

I think modern, scientifically educated, rational humans have the context and ability to figure out anything eventually. Nothing is "inscrutable" or "beyond our understanding", IMO. We'll come up with some framework for whatever we encounter eventually.
Assuming that rather dubious view to be true, why does that mean we will figure it out by that time? The setting makes obvious that we haven't and if we had WE would be equal to Grandfather, wouldn't we?
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:05 AM   #25
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

Besides Grandfather is always trying to play with people for the sake of his genetic manipulations. Perhaps this quest has something to do with an attempt to uplift man into Something Else. In any case you only need enough of an excuse to move the story along.
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:58 PM   #26
Malenfant
 
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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Assuming that rather dubious view to be true, why does that mean we will figure it out by that time? The setting makes obvious that we haven't and if we had WE would be equal to Grandfather, wouldn't we?
I'm talking generally here, not just in Traveller. But then Traveller's tech advancement is artificially slow anyway. By the year 5000-and-something (when the OTU is set) we should darn well be unrecognisable by our current standards.

And no, I don't think Grandfather is "sane" by any measure - he's a deluded, psychotic, homicidal maniac with vast power at his disposal and no mental checks to prevent him from abusing it. This is why I think he needs to be utterly destroyed - he's an existential threat to the entire setting.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:00 PM   #27
Malenfant
 
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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I think the Ancients are primarily a plot device that allows a referee to futz around with time and space and probability and astronomy.
I think they seem to be the catch-all excuse to explain the broken CT worldgen system ;).
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:15 PM   #28
Hans Rancke-Madsen
 
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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I think [the Ancients] seem to be the catch-all excuse to explain the broken CT worldgen system ;).
That won't work, since the exact same system is used to generate worlds inside and outside the Ancients' stomping grounds.


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Old 02-27-2011, 04:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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And no, I don't think Grandfather is "sane" by any measure - he's a deluded, psychotic, homicidal maniac with vast power at his disposal and no mental checks to prevent him from abusing it. This is why I think he needs to be utterly destroyed - he's an existential threat to the entire setting.
There. Now you have your campaign. Start with a mission imposed as a malicious trick and come back trying to destroy Grandfather.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:58 PM   #30
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Default Re: Secrets of the Ancients

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That won't work, since the exact same system is used to generate worlds inside and outside the Ancients' stomping grounds.
Yeah, and it's still used as the excuse regardless! :)
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