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Old 12-14-2009, 07:13 AM   #21
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Originally Posted by Ubiquitous View Post

I don't see the reason to differentiate the skills myself, but I'm sure GURPS has a reason.

EDIT: Basically, if you put a sniper rifle on a tri-pod, you don't turn it into Gunner: Cannon, you just collect your bonuses for bracing and such (right? If that's not how it works I'll look pretty foolish). I don't see a reason to outsource Guns (LMG) for Gunner: Machinegun for the same reason.
There's at least as much reason to differentiate Guns from Gunner as there is Guns(SMG), Guns(Rifle), and Guns(Shotgun).

Personally, I'd have made Guns(Shoulder Arms) and Guns(Handgun). Any deviation by type are Techniques at most, familiarity penalties possibly.

I have fired bolt action rifles, semi-auto rifles, and a few times a SMG (a semi-auto Thompson, and a full-auto MP5). You shoot 'em pretty much the same way, although this could be because my skill, while not LOW, isn't high enough to make a difference. Shotguns vs rifles ARE fired differently, at least with shot. As the person who taught me shotguns said, "you don't AIM a shotgun, you POINT a shotgun." There could be a -1 or -2 default here, improvable by Technique.

If you're putting the weapon to your shoulder and firing down the barrel using sights, rather than traverse and elevation controls and a rear grip, I'd say a good case for Guns rather than gunner exists.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:30 AM   #22
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Shotguns vs rifles ARE fired differently, at least with shot. As the person who taught me shotguns said, "you don't AIM a shotgun, you POINT a shotgun."
Was this shooting skeet/bird hunting? In my experience of using shotguns on small game (non-flying), it was very much like rifle shooting.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:34 AM   #23
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

The simplest thing is to say that Gunner (MG) and Guns (LMG) have a close default. Somehow, we overlooked this . . . but I don't think it's especially unfair to use -2. That's the size of a mere familiarity penalty for most skills, and rather minimal. Yeah, a tripod removes most of the difficulties of firing an MG; that's built into its effects on ST and bracing. However, it also anchors the weapon in place a fair bit more, making it harder to manhandle a little to one side when needed, and requiring you to sit rather than go prone, which might be an unfamiliar shooting position.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:36 AM   #24
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Originally Posted by ed_209a View Post
Was this shooting skeet/bird hunting? In my experience of using shotguns on small game (non-flying), it was very much like rifle shooting.
Bird hunting was my lesson, productively extrapolated to skeet. I have to imagine that one can easily aim a slug...esp since they sell slug barrels with slug sights, while the only sight on a shot gun is usually a barrel end nubbie...
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:08 PM   #25
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

This is really a house rule thing, I guess. IMO, having fired M60s from the hip, on a bi-pod, and on a tripod, you only get better with more bracing. This is included in the rules if the skill is the same. So- *make* it the same. An M60 is not going to change skill because you're holding it differently. Having it fundamentally changed, like swapping parts out to make it an assault rifle, *might* change the skill, but honestly even then I would be leaning toward the benefit of the doubt. Honestly, what's the hard part about letting your players shoot their gun at the skill level they bought to shoot that very gun with? I can understand if it's something they've never touched, like the tennis guy grabbing a MG, but when the character is supposed to know how to shoot that gun- let him shoot it, for Pete's sake. Exactly what it's sitting on or bolted down to is getting mighty nit-picky gritty, if you ask me (which no one did, but you get my opinion anyhow.) ;)

All I'm saying is, if your player wants to be an expert with a gun, and pays the points, why screw with him (or her) and make them buy another skill at double the points, just so they can put it on mount? Presuming they have familiarity with firing from a tripod isn't that big of a deal, and if you really think it is, make them carry their own tripod. Darn things must weigh around 80 pounds!
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:19 PM   #26
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Bird hunting was my lesson, productively extrapolated to skeet. I have to imagine that one can easily aim a slug...esp since they sell slug barrels with slug sights, while the only sight on a shot gun is usually a barrel end nubbie...
Slugs would be (preferably) used with 'rifle-style' sights. Shot you just point.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:25 PM   #27
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

I'd say that if it's still got the pistol grip on it (which would include a GPMG in support role) its Guns (LMG), if it's got spade grips (or something similar) like an HMG, MMG or the vehicle versions of some guns that are more normally GPMG then it's Gunner (MG)
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Slugs would be (preferably) used with 'rifle-style' sights. Shot you just point.
Nah, even using shot you have to aim. Your pattern is only 10-20" across at responsible small game ranges. You would aim if shooting a rifle at a 10-20" target wouldn't you? I would.

But, there is a big difference shooting birds/skeet. I think it's more intuitive than shooting ground targets. You lead the bird and fire when it feels right, don't you?
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:00 PM   #29
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Originally Posted by ed_209a View Post
Nah, even using shot you have to aim. Your pattern is only 10-20" across at responsible small game ranges. You would aim if shooting a rifle at a 10-20" target wouldn't you? I would.

But, there is a big difference shooting birds/skeet. I think it's more intuitive than shooting ground targets. You lead the bird and fire when it feels right, don't you?
Sort-of sounds like a different technique, doesn't it? Skeet is snap shotting, where your reflexes and instinct come into play big time. I suppose if you wanted you could modify Close-Quarters-Battle from HT into a technique for snap shooting shotguns. This would help you deal with bulk penalties from the shotgun.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Reality Check: guns (lmg) and Gunner (mg)

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Originally Posted by ed_209a View Post
But, there is a big difference shooting birds/skeet. I think it's more intuitive than shooting ground targets. You lead the bird and fire when it feels right, don't you?
No, I paint across the target with the barrel, firing as the barrel sweeps across. Basically, move the barrel in the same arc as the bird, just faster, and squeeze the trigger right as the barrel passes from behind to in front of the target.
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