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Old 04-12-2024, 12:40 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Wealth, Status vs. Voting Power

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
In practice most idealized societies are incapable of existing in a functional manner in the real world; once you get above a certain size (usually 3-4 digits) you really start needing formal control structures. This is generally the fatal flaw of (utopian) anarchy, libertarianism, and related theories.

However, it's not actually a (direct) problem for socialism, because socialism isn't opposed to format control structures. The problem for socialism is that administrators are inclined to think the stuff they administer is theirs, rather than something they're administering in trust for the society as a whole.
Which, of course, is a problem of bureaucracies in general rather than specifically socialist ones. (Though not not of socialist ones.)

With variations in who the trust is supposed to be for, it's also a characteristic problem of corporate management and government bureaucracy in governments ranging from parliamentary or presidential republic to despotism, and arguably describes the transition of Carolingian counties from appointed administratorships to hereditary possessions.
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Old 04-12-2024, 12:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Wealth, Status vs. Voting Power

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Which, of course, is a problem of bureaucracies in general rather than specifically socialist ones.
Well, yes and no. The particular problem for socialism (and other highly egalitarian theories) isn't that higher rank bureaucrats have higher status (and all the things that go along with that), it's that it tries to deny that they have higher status.
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Old 04-12-2024, 02:43 PM   #33
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Wealth, Status vs. Voting Power

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Well, yes and no. The particular problem for socialism (and other highly egalitarian theories) isn't that higher rank bureaucrats have higher status (and all the things that go along with that), it's that it tries to deny that they have higher status.
Those seem like two different things that are both problems, both of which can apply but both of which are distinct from the one you previously referenced:

"The problem for socialism is that administrators are inclined to think the stuff they administer is theirs, rather than something they're administering in trust for the society as a whole."

That problem does not imply that higher rank bureaucrats must or should receive the benefits of Status, but that they need to be managed so as to mitigate their tendency to misuse their authority in ways that include but aren't limited to constructing Status for themselves.
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Old 04-12-2024, 03:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: Wealth, Status vs. Voting Power

Appointed officials using their position to take for themselves what they were not given is more or less a universal phenomena. Embezzlement is probably as old as civilization; as for status, we can for example point to Absolutist France, where the old feudal nobility ("nobles of the sword") thought it very unfair that the "nobles of the robe" were able to gain aristocratic privileges merely by holding office. Socialism suffers from this issue, of course, but I'd probably more inclined to chalk it up under "problems with civilization" than "problems of socialism".
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Old 04-12-2024, 04:24 PM   #35
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Wealth, Status vs. Voting Power

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
Appointed officials using their position to take for themselves what they were not given is more or less a universal phenomena. Embezzlement is probably as old as civilization; as for status, we can for example point to Absolutist France, where the old feudal nobility ("nobles of the sword") thought it very unfair that the "nobles of the robe" were able to gain aristocratic privileges merely by holding office. Socialism suffers from this issue, of course, but I'd probably more inclined to chalk it up under "problems with civilization" than "problems of socialism".
However, even in a socialism where everyone was genuinely committed and followed the rules, it would still be impossible to avoid having a form of Rank. Decisions would have to be made for the society as a whole by some unified organization, and it wouldn't be practical to have every single person take part in discussing all the decisions. Some smaller group would have to make the key structural decisions, and pass them down to other groups who would implement them in different industries, and then in different farms or factories—and there you have Rank.
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Old 04-12-2024, 05:05 PM   #36
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Wealth, Status vs. Voting Power

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Political rank like this is probably worth around 3/level
Good idea.

Cost might go up to 4 or even 5 points/level in an authoritarian regime and/or be subsumed into Administrative Rank.

Cost would go down to no more than 1 point/level or turn into a Perk for purely regional or local political rank.
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