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Old 04-02-2024, 11:56 AM   #11
King Leonidas
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/...ch/companion2/

If your GM isn't using this pdf you probably don't have to worr about cheap armor being easier to damage. If this is for that super low TL campaign you've talked about in the past the concept shouldn't apply that much.
it's not that game anymore it's new game TL4. GM seems to want to stick to mostly basic rules with low tech equipment so.
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Old 04-02-2024, 12:13 PM   #12
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Originally Posted by King Leonidas View Post
it's not that game anymore it's new game TL4. GM seems to want to stick to mostly basic rules with low tech equipment so.
Basic Set doesn't have any guidelines on damage to armor, so Cheap won't have any direct impact on that (even the Maintenance rules are implied not to apply to armor), although the GM could fiat that things that damage armor are extra-effective against Cheap versions. In that case, -1 DR will probably be the only real impact from getting the Cheap version of something. Then again, if just sticking with Basic Set, I don't think Cheap armor is even a thing - I think different qualities of armor was introduced in GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (or maybe GURPS Martial Arts).

Of course, there's an easy way for you to determine how, and indeed if, Cheap will impact the durability of the armor - ask the GM how he intends to handle it. Unless you're here asking about it on behalf of the GM anyway.
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Old 04-02-2024, 12:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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yeah but where is that? i don't think hes tracking armour damage
The Cheap modifier changes depending on where it's at.
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Old 04-02-2024, 02:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
The Cheap modifier changes depending on where it's at.
Book page? currently having breastplate and helmet. and to varyeon as long as it's not any complex rules it's fine he says. so i don't know why he said cheap armour is bad. i'm presuming it's cause he thinks it's the same as cheap weapons
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Old 04-02-2024, 02:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
Other potential real-world problems with cheap armour really need nit-picky grubby-realism rules. Persistent mild discomfort, maintenance problems, restricted arcs of movement and view…
Way back in the day, I saw lots of effectively Cheap armor in the SCA. In addition to the above:

. . . potential gaps in coverage (see Chinks in Armor), noisy (ill-fitting means it rattles around giving +1 or more to Hearing rolls), reduced peripheral vision from helmets, overall -1 to DX or to certain DX-based skills (e.g., Acrobatics) for clunky design, reduced HP, potentially catastrophic failure (e.g., plates getting driven into your body or rivets coming loose, -1 to DX or Move due to strap failure), penalties to resist Heat or Fatigue due to bad ventilation. Slower to don or remove (because armor parts need to be duct taped into place).

Effectively reduced wearer Appearance or Reputation due to ugliness of the armor. (Unless a fighter was recognized by their distinctively ugly armor, there was a natural assumption to assume that anyone in armor obviously made using default Armoury skill was a newbie and experienced fighters would react accordingly. OTOH, anyone wearing an obviously professional-quality suit of armor, especially 15th or 16 century-style suits of armor, was assumed to be more experienced that they actually were.)

Cheap armor almost never comes with properly fitted foundation garments, so plates over sensitive parts of the body can be driven into flesh for crushing damage, just as if the armor had the Flexible modifier.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 04-02-2024 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-02-2024, 02:23 PM   #16
King Leonidas
 
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Way back in the day, I saw lots of effectively Cheap armor in the SCA. In addition to the above:

. . . potential gaps in coverage (see Chinks in Armor), noisy (ill-fitting means it rattles around giving +1 or more to Hearing rolls), reduced peripheral vision from helmets, overall -1 to DX or to certain DX-based skills (e.g., Acrobatics) for clunky design, reduced HP, potentially catastrophic failure (e.g., plates getting driven into your body or rivets coming loose, -1 to DX or Move due to strap failure, penalties to resist Heat or Fatigue due to bad ventilation. Slower to don or remove (because armor parts need to be duct taped into place). Effectively reduced wearer Appearance or Reputation due to ugliness of the armor. (Unless a fighter was recognized by their distinctively ugly armor, there was a natural assumption to assume that anyone in armor obviously made using default Armoury skill was a newbie and experienced fighters would react accordingly. OTOH, anyone wearing an obviously professional-quality suit of armor, especially fully articulated plate, was assumed to be more experienced that they actually were.)

Cheap armor almost never comes with properly fitted foundation garments, so plates over sensitive parts of the body can be driven into flesh for crushing damage, just as if the armor had the Flexible modifier.
is this RAW?
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Old 04-02-2024, 02:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Book page? currently having breastplate and helmet.
So the -1 to DR for cheap armor appears in Low-Tech: Instant Armor (p. 18) and GURPS Low-Tech (p. 109).

Cheap as a general modifier appears in GURPS High-Tech (p. 10). GURPS Low-Tech (p. 14).

I could have sworn there was a modifier in DF, MH, or Action - but there is not.

In the damaging armor rules it doesn't say if cheap armor is a lower HT...so this seems a bit of a lacuna. 60% off for "only" -1 DR is a steal.
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Old 04-02-2024, 02:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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60% off for "only" -1 DR is a steal.
Actually, it's frequently a bad deal. For example, light scale (DR 3) is $320 and 16 lb. Cheap medium scale (also DR 3) is $220 and 28 lb. Is $100 in savings really worth an extra 12 pounds of weight?
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Old 04-02-2024, 02:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Actually, it's frequently a bad deal. For example, light scale (DR 3) is $320 and 16 lb. Cheap medium scale (also DR 3) is $220 and 28 lb. Is $100 in savings really worth an extra 12 pounds of weight?
Depends on what armor you're looking at how good/bad of a deal it is. Consider Light Plate, and applying the rules for Heavy Plate (which is how Medium and Heavy Plate were generated, this just lets you do it freeform). A DR 3 iron plate cuirass is $1000 and 8 lb. A DR 3 cheap iron plate cuirass is $600 and 12 lb. $400 in savings - 20% Average Starting Wealth at TL 4 - may well be worth a mere +4 lb. It gets worse with really heavy plate - a DR 9 iron plate cuirass is $4,000 and 32 lb, while a DR 9 cheap iron plate cuirass is $1,800 and 36 lb. That's a trade of $2,200 (a bit over ASW) for only +4 lb. The Pyramid armor design articles handle this more consistently (armor weight and cost is purely linear with DR, and using cheaper materials is effectively a weight multiplier), although it only seems to concern itself with materials, not workmanship.
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Old 04-02-2024, 03:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cheap armour? what's the drawback?

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Actually, it's frequently a bad deal. For example, light scale (DR 3) is $320 and 16 lb. Cheap medium scale (also DR 3) is $220 and 28 lb. Is $100 in savings really worth an extra 12 pounds of weight?
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Depends on what armor you're looking at how good/bad of a deal it is. Consider Light Plate, and applying the rules for Heavy Plate (which is how Medium and Heavy Plate were generated, this just lets you do it freeform). A DR 3 iron plate cuirass is $1000 and 8 lb. A DR 3 cheap iron plate cuirass is $600 and 12 lb. $400 in savings - 20% Average Starting Wealth at TL 4 - may well be worth a mere +4 lb. It gets worse with really heavy plate - a DR 9 iron plate cuirass is $4,000 and 32 lb, while a DR 9 cheap iron plate cuirass is $1,800 and 36 lb. That's a trade of $2,200 (a bit over ASW) for only +4 lb. The Pyramid armor design articles handle this more consistently (armor weight and cost is purely linear with DR, and using cheaper materials is effectively a weight multiplier), although it only seems to concern itself with materials, not workmanship.
My boy here got it in one. Cheaper stuff? Yeah, maybe not. Higher end stuff...it kind of breaks down. I'm going to need to really look at this for my upcoming game. Closely.
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