RPM Invisibility rituals

[qchap]

Hello! I'm starting to understand the RPM system better, so much less questions arise, but now I still have a couple of little new ones.

The question is how do I do the Invisibility ritual? I know that a lot of things in RPM could be done in different ways, so I need some of them, not THE one.

1) What path and effect should I use? I think this part of the question is not too difficult, and I have some options: Greater Destroy Energy (for removing the ability of light to reflect), Greater Control Energy (for making light to go around the subject), Greater Transform Body (for giving the subject superior chameleon-like skin), Greater Transform Matter (similar, but for matter). Do I miss something (e.g. could I Greater Destroy Matter to give it "partial destruction"-can't be seen? Same for Body)? Or maybe some of the effects I listed are wrong?

2) Do I need Altered Traits (Invisibility)? I know the rule of thumb is that you don't need Altered Traits if the subjuct doesn't get control of the advantage. And I understand how It works with something like Flying (giving subject Flying gives it ability to fly, but using only spell effect just lets the caster move it). But I don't understand what should it mean with Invisibility, which is not controllable by default.
If I give an inanimate object Invisibility, it really don't sound like Altered Traits.
If I give someone non-switchable Invisibility, it could harm the subject a lot, because he doesn't get control of it. So it kinda sounds like it doesn't need Altered Traits for it.
But if I give it to my ally rogue, he don't need any control to make advantage of it.
And if I give it to myself, I don't get the control over Invisibility, but I don't need it, because I have control over the spell, which is about the same.
Someone could rule that in some cases it needs Altered Traits, and in some - don't. But then it would become different spells, which is wierd.
Of course, giving switchable Invisibility does need Altered Traits, am I right?
Now, if the answer is "you need Altered Traits for non-switchable Invisibility" (or when I need Altered Traits fot switchable one), then I also need to add the "Can Carry Objects" enhancement (if it's done via Greater Destroy Energy), right? Are "No encumbrance" and "Heavy encumbrance" variants count as different spells?

When I thought about this question first, of course I've done some research. I've found two examples of the Invisibility ritual.

First is Invisibility spell from Dungeon Fantasy 19 on p27 (yes, I know that Incantation Magic is different system, but I think I can take some thoughts about how RPM works from it). It uses Control Elementalism (which I would translate as Greater Control Energy for RPM in this case) and adds Altered Traits, Invisibility (Can Carry Objects, Heavy Encumbrance, +100%). So, it uses the Altered Traits route, even for non-switchable Invisibility.

Second one is from Pyramid 3-114 p23, called Nightdrinker’s Gift. It gives Flying and Invisibility. It does use Altered Traits for Flying (because it would be controlled by subject, and if the subject is the caster - at least he wouldn't need to concentrate to move himself in the air), but does not use Altered Traits for Invisibility, using only Greater Control Energy for it. The difference between the two spells really confused me.

And one bonus question, connected to Nightdrinker’s Gift spell. Greater Control Body is what used there for flying - and I understand why it could be used this way. But could I use Greater Control Energy for Flying? Flavoring it by controlling the kinetic energy of the already-moving object (body), so I don't need to Create it first?
And for moving inanimate objects, could I use Greater Create Energy + Greater Control Energy, for first moving the object in some way, and than gaining control of the motion? Or would the Create effect be Lesser here?

[johndallman]

Project Grimoire lists it as "Greater Transform Body[8]; Lesser Control Energy[5]; Duration: 10 minutes [1]; Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3]; Cost: 51."

I don't think I've ever used outright invisibility with RPM. Bonuses to Stealth skill were what I tended to use.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Project Grimoire lists it as "Greater Transform Body[8]; Lesser Control Energy[5]; Duration: 10 minutes [1]; Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3]; Cost: 51."

It's some more confusing. Greater Transform Body - ok. Control Energy for clothes and such? Ok, but why Lesser? And why not just one Greater Control Energy?

For the Altered Traits - I see that it's not using it. Some explanations about why is it right choice would help me more, but the example is fine too, thanks!

[qchap]

Originally Posted by johndallman

[URL="http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=124196"]I don't think I've ever used outright invisibility with RPM. Bonuses to Stealth skill were what I tended to use.

If not using Altered Traits for Invisibility is right, then it would cost something like "Greater Control Energy[5]; Duration: 10 minutes [1]; Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3]; Cost: 27 (9*3)", and it would give you +9 bonus to Stealth rolls.

"Lesser Control Energy[5]; Duration: 10 minutes [1]; Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3]; Bestows a Bonus, Stealth +7 [20]; Cost: 29" - if you'd choose to add a Stealth bonus, it'd cost you more for just +7 bonus. And it's even if +7 bonus is allowed by Lesser effect (which is often not, as I understand).

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by qchap

Greater Transform Body - ok. Control Energy for clothes and such? Ok, but why Lesser? And why not just one Greater Control Energy?

The choices are based more on how you see the spell working, and sometimes how complicated or expensive you want the spell to be. There's always more than one way to build any effect.

Just guessing at what this author had in mind, I'd think they saw the spell as altering the subject's body to sense it on one side and re-emit matching light on the other, if not transform it to act as a light pipe or metamaterial to carry around the incoming light. That sounds Greater to me. Lesser Control Energy is there to handle details like actually creating that light to emit. Making Body the main effect helps define the effect as affecting all of one creature, confined by the boundaries of its body, as opposed to, say, a spherical bubble around their center of mass. Letting the light actually land on the subject, as opposed to bending incoming light around without ever touching it, is one way to wave a hand at the classic drawback of light-bending rationales rendering the subject blind. (If the light doesn't reach their retina because it's sent around the subject, how do they see? The magi-babble has to claim to duplicate that light, not just reroute existing photons.)

It's probably worth considering how the invis is supposed to work to help answer in-game questions about corner cases. It's also probably worth not getting too hung up on the physical details. It's magic; it won't actually work in minute, quantitative physical detail, or we'd just call it a well-understood "technology". Given how broad as the RPM Paths are, they don't resolve to that kind of detail anyway.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Project Grimoire lists it as "Greater Transform Body[8]; Lesser Control Energy[5]; Duration: 10 minutes [1]; Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3]; Cost: 51."

One more interesting thing - I found a Strike Blind spell in the Project Grimoire, and its listed like this: "Greater Control Body (5) + Altered Trait, Blindness (10) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3).*57 energy (19×3)", so it uses Altered Traits to give Blindness. Why is it needed here and isn't in the Invisibility spell? I honestly don't see real difference (pun not intended), except that the first is advantage and the second is disadvantage - and, as I understand, it should be easier to impose disadvantage, not harder.

So, should then a correct Strike Blind spell be listed like "Greater Control Body (5) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 27 energy (9×3)"? Or does the Invisibility spell need Altered Traits? I think it should be one way or another for both spells. Or am I wrong?

[Celjabba]

I would require Altered Traits for invisibility if you cast it on an independent target (something that can move or interact with the world on its own) - including yourself.
For a ritual that turn an item invisible, otoh, probably not.
But that's for game balance more than any logical analysis.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I would require Altered Traits for invisibility if you cast it on an independent target (something that can move or interact with the world on its own) - including yourself.
For a ritual that turn an item invisible, otoh, probably not.
But that's for game balance more than any logical analysis.

I kinda agree with this logic. So, I could have two rituals - one for inanimate subjects only, and one for animate OR inanimate subjects. The first one would be much cheaper because of not having Altered Traits modifier. Otherwise the rituals would be identical.

[sir_pudding]

When to Use Altered Traits, How to Be A GURPS GM: Ritual Path Magic p.5, is probably helpful here.

Although based on those guidelines I'm not sure that blinding rituals do. They aren't under the subject's control, while it does modify the target's native abilities itsvmore being turned into a cat than being able to turn in into a cat, Blindness seems implicit to blinding, and it makes sense without Altered Traits.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

When to Use Altered Traits, How to Be A GURPS GM: Ritual Path Magic p.5, is probably helpful here.

Yes, I know those recomendations, but I failed to find use for them here.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

[I]Although based on those guidelines I'm not sure that blinding rituals do. They aren't under the subject's control, while it does modify the target's native abilities itsvmore being turned into a cat than being able to turn in into a cat, Blindness seems implicit to blinding, and it makes sense without Altered Traits.

And it's true to a lot of disadvantages, maybe even to the majority. Spells like Deafness, Lame, Quadriplegic, or even Kleptomania - nothing is under the subject's control. Shouldn't I use Altered Traits for them, as well for almost any other disadvantage?

A lot of other advantages are not "controlled" too, similar to Invisibility. I can't turn off my DR even if I want to suicide. So I don't use Altered Traits for it? Regeneration is not controlled, and I could give it to someone performing ritual self-harming, so he couldn't finish his ritual (evil laugh). So, I don't use Altered Traits for it either, right? Seems really weird.