[Movie Supers] Iron Man

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by naloth

Are you suggesting a single modular ability worth the cost of a single alternate form level should cover the cost of changing into any template up to the value of his most expensive alternate form? It sounds like a house rule that could invalidate the need for regular Morph entirely...

It also invalidates Omnilingual and a whole host of other traits. Modular Abilities come out favorably in a lot of comparisons.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

It also invalidates Omnilingual and a whole host of other traits. Modular Abilities come out favorably in a lot of comparisons.

That's apples and oranges. Omnilingual (and other modular abilities) are typically an ability fully purchased with Modular Ability. Here you're trying to pay for the bulk of the ability with regular points and the "switch part" with Modular Points.

If you intend to buy the Base 15 (+mods) x forms - 1 plus the 90% of the highest template, sure it's a valid Modular Ability. If you only pay for the Base 15 (+mods) you shouldn't get access to any template worth more than your (typically 0 point) racial template since you're not making the racial template part of your modular ability.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by naloth

That's apples and oranges. Omnilingual (and other modular abilities) are typically an ability fully purchased with Modular Ability. Here you're trying to pay for the bulk of the ability with regular points and the "switch part" with Modular Points.

If you intend to buy the Base 15 (+mods) x forms - 1 plus the 90% of the highest template, sure it's a valid Modular Ability. If you only pay for the Base 15 (+mods) you shouldn't get access to any template worth more than your (typically 0 point) racial template since you're not making the racial template part of your modular ability.

The RAW does not prohibit it, so it's a GM call, and thus valid for arguments sake. This is a lovely point to build another thread on, but unrelated to the OP...

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by naloth

If you intend to buy the Base 15 (+mods) x forms - 1 plus the 90% of the highest template, sure it's a valid Modular Ability. If you only pay for the Base 15 (+mods) you shouldn't get access to any template worth more than your (typically 0 point) racial template since you're not making the racial template part of your modular ability.

That's what I'm saying to do. Purchase one Alternate Form. That would be something like two thousand points.

Then, on top of that, purchase a Modular Ability (Iron Man suit Alternate Forms only, -x#) for a low price. Then you can switch to different suits with that MA.

That way you don't end up paying out the nose for new abilities every time Tony invents another suit. All he has to do is take one off and put the new one on and that uses his MA to give him a new Alternate Form.

He could invent a suit that can't fly and can only walk slowly, but can survive more damage, and all he'd need to do is switch to a different AF (with some limitation saying it only works on Iron Man suits) with his MA. Then he can easily invent new suits and swap his forms around.

None of the other ways I see people proposing to do that are anywhere near as cost effective. Either he spends what could be thousands of points on different suits and different alternative abilities or he uses some other method which doesn't involve doing that, such as using Allies, Alternate Form, or ignoring all the point stuff and using money. I don't see any other way to do it.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Snaps

Tony Stark (2605 points)

ST 10 [0]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 18 [160]; HT 11 [10].
Damage 1d-2/1d; BL 20*lb; HP 10 [0]; Will 18 [0]; Per 18 [0]; FP 11 [0].
Basic Speed 5.50 [0]; Basic Move 5 [0]; Dodge 9*.

Social Background
TL: 10 [10].

Advantages
Appearance (Handsome) [12]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Gadgeteer [25]; Gizmo 3 [15]; Independent Income 20 [20]; Wealth: Multimillionaire 4 (Net Worth of 4 Billion) [150].


Skills:
Battlesuit! (WC) IQ+2 [48]-20; Businessman! (WC) IQ [24]-18; Computers! (WC) IQ [24]-18; Drive! (WC) IQ-2 [6]-16; Inventor! (WC) IQ [24]-18; Science! (WC) IQ [24]-18.

Attribute-wise I didn't think Tony needed that much, except for his IQ, where I think he deserves the whole package, (Not just IQ with Talents). Tony Stark actually is a Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist after all.

I'd bump his HP to 13, bump up the HT a little maybe 13, maybe Alcohol Tolerance. Probably throw in Very Rapid Healing [15]

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Isn't that exactly what an AF with gadget modifiers on it looks like?

As I just remarked, no. Tony Stark dons his armor, he doesn't switch forms and appear as armor.

What ways are those? Purchasing the abilities as powers and then purchasing each suit's different abilities as alternative abilities? Purchasing each suit as an Ally? Purchasing each suit with money, even though they're not things that anyone can purchase with money?

Just model it for what it is. Powers built as items.

Alternate Form combined with a Modular Ability for each new ability is the closest we can get to what we see in the movies without doing something that's abusively cheap.

Just because the audience doesn't know in advance what capabilities to expect from the armor does not mean that it actually purports to have infinite variations.

This is the same discussion that comes up with mech suits for those kinds of games. My preferred way of handling that is either with money if you can purchase them or as Alternate Form if you can't.

Alternate form makes sense if they are an alternate form. It does not make sense if it's a suit they put on.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

And that would be fine if Tony only had one suit. But he has a bunch of different suits that he can swap out.

So you're looking at this being much more expensive if you use gadget abilities
than if you use Alternate Form,...

Seems like you're just trying to game the system to make a cheaper build, rather than pay any regard for particulars of the thing you're purporting to represent. (I decline to type the dreaded word.)

[Langy]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

That's what I'm saying to do. Purchase one Alternate Form. That would be something like two thousand points.

Then, on top of that, purchase a Modular Ability (Iron Man suit Alternate Forms only, -x#) for a low price. Then you can switch to different suits with that MA.

I wouldn't allow this - seems way too cheap to combine Modular Ability and Alternate Form, a bit like using a Modular Ability to purchase an Alternative Ability. Instead, I'd allow Stark to purchase new Alternate Forms during play with earned points - he only buys one per big adventure, and I find it unlikely that each form will cost the default 15 CP - it'd probably be something like: Once On, Stays On, +50%; Trigger, Rare, -40%; Super-Science, -10%; Preparation Required, Immediate, 1 minute, -30%. Maybe some other things, too.

However, I would not use Reciprocal Rest or anything else to indicate that the Iron Man suit isn't just a regular gadget.

[Refplace]

Allies with Possession and Puppets work, but so does AF IMHO.
I would be Leary of MA in an AF but not outside it and stacked.
Each new suit costs 15 points as long s its cheaper then the base suit and as was said you can get the cost of that 15 down even further.
And for some adventures where he has to build one use suit take the 1/5 cost for a 1 use ability.
So 3 points or less for a 1 shot custom suit :)

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Juca

You are aware that at some point in the first movie, iron man takes a direct hit from a T-72 main cannon to the face without serious consequences, are you? I don't think that DR 100 with hardened 2 can withstand for that.

Probably not, but DR 100 with Damage Reduction /100 sure can. I'm thinking that shot did something like 700 damage. -100 would leave 600 damage to be divide by 100, resulting in 6 damage to the suit, not Tony Stark.

I setup the Iron Man armor as an Alternate Form because I think its the best way to to represent all of the different different situations you might run into as a player playing Tony Stark. I can't think of another way to cover them all. I don't know if you could even do it with 10,000 points in Modular Abilities.

Right now with this build Tony Stark takes on an Alternate Form when he dons the Iron Man armor, when in that form the suit has 30 hit points, 100 DR, Damage Reduction /100, etc. The Iron Man form is bought with Non-Reciprocal damage, but with a Nuisance Effect: When an attack does more than 30 damage to the armor after DR and Damage Reduction, it penetrates the armor and damages Tony inside.

So for example, if Thor or the Hulk struck Iron Man in the side, hitting him for 1,000d or whatever it is they do, if they did 4200 damage, that would first be reduced by 100 for Iron Man's DR, then the remaining 4100 would be divided by 100 from his Damage Reduction for a total of 41 points of damage. The Iron Man Armor would lose 41 hit points. But because this is above the 30 Hit Points the armor has, every point of damage above 30 would penetrate the armor and damage Tony Stark inside.

In other words, that 4200 damage hit would inflict 41 points of damage on the Iron Man Armor, dealing it a major wound and putting it into the negative, and Tony Stark inside would suffer 11 points of damage, and probably have a cracked rib or two.

Now to me, this sounds like a perfect way to represent how the Iron Man armor protects Tony, and I can't think of a better way to stat it. The numbers might need to be tweaked, I haven't play tested this after all, but I think it's pretty close. The Damage Reduction might be a bit too high after looking at that example. But then again I don't think we ever see Tony injured while wearing the armor, despite all of the battles he fights, so we know that the armor is pretty tough.

To me the biggest advantages of using Alternate Forms for Iron man is that it allows the Armor and Tony to be damaged separately. I don't think any other method does this well. Also, when one suit of armor is badly damaged, Tony can go put on another. I don't know what other rule you could use to represent this, but we all know it's something Tony can do.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't see any reason to suppose that Tony's hit points against anything that penetrates the armor will be higher. The armor gives him DR, not HP.

Tony himself doesn't have more hit points. The Armor has its own pool of hit points. If enough damage is done then the damage will bypass the Non-Reciprocal Damage Enhancement and deal damage directly to Tony's hit points.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The man builds a 3 GW cold fusion reactor the size of an ashtray in a cave in Afghansitatn using nothing but scrap metal just so he can run his pacemaker and you think this can be done by a non-cinematic Gadgeteer?

Then he goes on to build aa working prototype of a flying battlesuit out of more scrap meat and all of this in about a week. Just the part in Basic about 25pt Gadgeteers still needing "expensive facilities" forces Stark into 50pt territory.

If you look at the actual rules for Quick Gadgeteering, a prototype Complex invention takes even a Quick Gadgeteer 4D hours to assemble. This looks about right for the Mark II armor in the 1st movie.

Also, ErnhamDJ is right about Multimilionaire 4 being 20 billion. Filth Rich is $2 million at TL8 (and you use the campaign's TL even if the character has a higher one) and each level of Multimillionaire is 10x.

I also agree about Alternate Form looking wrong. Quick Gagdeteer solves the problems that was aimed at much better.

Thanks for pointing that out. I haven't used Gadgeteer much because to be honest, I don't like the advantage or the rules for it, so I tend to skip over it. Gaining a thousand points or more in advantages using only 200 or so points in Gadgeteering and Wealth advantages seems wrong to me. But I did think about building his basic Armor suit using Damage Reduction and Super-Strength, then calling everything else high tech gadgets created with Gadgeteer (like the Repulsors, Missiles, Sensors, etc).

Has anyone allowed a character to make something like a wrist mounted rocket, doing 40d of damage using just Gadgeteer? What about Armored suits with hundreds of DR?

I had just used GCA to get the amounts given by wealth. I was shooting for somewhere in the 1 to 10 billion dollar range.

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I like the idea of using Alternate Form. It's elegant and you have to pay points for the stuff you get.

But there are certainly instances where it might not work as you would like. It would be nice if you could purchase a different Alternate Form for different parts of your body. One for your head, to represent the helmet, and another for each leg, and so on.

Since the Alternate Form has its own Hit Points separate from Tony Stark's, the Iron Man Armor's limbs can be crippled, severed, etc. Also, since all of the various weapons, sensors, and defenses of the armor were bought as gadgets with different size penalties, an enemy can attack them just like any vital hit location on a person.

So for example, the suits Laser is located on the forearm and is -3 to hit. I'd say that any hit to the Laser, doing more than half the suits HP (so 15 damage) would cripple the Laser, ruining it until it could be replaced or repaired.

Originally Posted by naloth

If you were going the Dreadnaught route, I imagine you would have each suit as an alternate ability i.e. pay full cost for the most expensive and 1/5 for each additional one. You could be creative with a "base suit" to cover shared traits then have add on packages to specialize reducing the overall cost.

The problem is that 1/5th of a 2000 battlesuit is still 400 points.

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

That's what I'm saying to do. Purchase one Alternate Form. That would be something like two thousand points.

Then, on top of that, purchase a Modular Ability (Iron Man suit Alternate Forms only, -x#) for a low price. Then you can switch to different suits with that MA.

That's exactly what I did :)