should Berserk have a time limit?

[Plane]

in studying B124 there only seems to be two situations which allow you a self-control roll to snap out of the state:

1) "when you down a foe"

2) "each time you down a foe"

3) "when no foes remain"

It also seems implied to end if you are knocked unconscious (which you resist a +4) ie you don't wake up berserk. Same w/ death (if you get resurrected you prob don't resume berserk state)

I guess what I'm wondering about here is what happens if you never manage to down a foe. Are you just permanently in this state?

Like what if:

1) you keep fighting the foe and can't manage to down them, like maybe they're just too large to knock over or have too much DR to damage - at some point wouldn't you realize this and calm down?

2) you simply can't get to a foe, like there is a chasm between you that's too long to jump (they cut down the bridge) or the foe is consistently outpacing you (they're on horseback or driving a car, you're pursuing on foot)

I don't think there should be any hardcap "you automatically get an unmodified self control roll to snap out" but maybe a soft-capped system where at first you get SC rolls to snap out at a huge penalty (enemy just out of reach) which slowly becomes unmodified then at a huge bonus (enemy is long gone)

Even in the case of auto-fail berserkers (zombies) there should be a way out of this. Essentially when effectively "no foes remain" either because you can't perceive them (they've effectively hidden themselves, you haven't laid eyes on them for several minutes) or because it becomes overwhelmingly clear that you have zero chance of being able to engage with them or do them harm.

I could even see IQ checks coming into play here because someone with a higher IQ could probably figure out faster "there's no way my bullets are penetrating that tank's DR" than someone lower IQ

[Anthony]

In your second case, once all targets have left the field there are no foes remaining. In the first case, you'll eventually collapse from exhaustion, but is someone who's ignoring you really a foe (if they're not ignoring you, unless you're also invulnerable to them, you'll get knocked out or killed).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Plane

in studying B124 there only seems to be two situations which allow you a self-control roll to snap out of the state:

1) "when you down a foe"

2) "each time you down a foe"

3) "when no foes remain"

It also seems implied to end if you are knocked unconscious (which you resist a +4) ie you don't wake up berserk. Same w/ death (if you get resurrected you prob don't resume berserk state)

I guess what I'm wondering about here is what happens if you never manage to down a foe. Are you just permanently in this state?

Like what if:

1) you keep fighting the foe and can't manage to down them, like maybe they're just too large to knock over or have too much DR to damage - at some point wouldn't you realize this and calm down?

2) you simply can't get to a foe, like there is a chasm between you that's too long to jump (they cut down the bridge) or the foe is consistently outpacing you (they're on horseback or driving a car, you're pursuing on foot)

I don't think there should be any hardcap "you automatically get an unmodified self control roll to snap out" but maybe a soft-capped system where at first you get SC rolls to snap out at a huge penalty (enemy just out of reach) which slowly becomes unmodified then at a huge bonus (enemy is long gone)

Even in the case of auto-fail berserkers (zombies) there should be a way out of this. Essentially when effectively "no foes remain" either because you can't perceive them (they've effectively hidden themselves, you haven't laid eyes on them for several minutes) or because it becomes overwhelmingly clear that you have zero chance of being able to engage with them or do them harm.

I could even see IQ checks coming into play here because someone with a higher IQ could probably figure out faster "there's no way my bullets are penetrating that tank's DR" than someone lower IQ

I'm not seeing a problem - you fight until you can find no more enemies, and if they're running away and you can't keep up sooner or later there are none, and you snap out of it, or you fail all your rolls and keep fighting (or you choose not to try rolling) and sooner or later either you get killed, fail a conciousness check, or you hit -1xFP and fall over.

Whether something that is immune to you and ignoring you counts as an enemy seems the only ambiguous part, and that'd be a GM call.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Plane

in studying B124 there only seems to be two situations which allow you a self-control roll to snap out of the state:

1) "when you down a foe"

2) "each time you down a foe"

3) "when no foes remain"

It also seems implied to end if you are knocked unconscious (which you resist a +4) ie you don't wake up berserk. Same w/ death (if you get resurrected you prob don't resume berserk state)

I guess what I'm wondering about here is what happens if you never manage to down a foe. Are you just permanently in this state?

Like what if:

1) you keep fighting the foe and can't manage to down them, like maybe they're just too large to knock over or have too much DR to damage - at some point wouldn't you realize this and calm down?

2) you simply can't get to a foe, like there is a chasm between you that's too long to jump (they cut down the bridge) or the foe is consistently outpacing you (they're on horseback or driving a car, you're pursuing on foot)

I don't think there should be any hardcap "you automatically get an unmodified self control roll to snap out" but maybe a soft-capped system where at first you get SC rolls to snap out at a huge penalty (enemy just out of reach) which slowly becomes unmodified then at a huge bonus (enemy is long gone)

Even in the case of auto-fail berserkers (zombies) there should be a way out of this. Essentially when effectively "no foes remain" either because you can't perceive them (they've effectively hidden themselves, you haven't laid eyes on them for several minutes) or because it becomes overwhelmingly clear that you have zero chance of being able to engage with them or do them harm.

I could even see IQ checks coming into play here because someone with a higher IQ could probably figure out faster "there's no way my bullets are penetrating that tank's DR" than someone lower IQ

The relevant point for Berserk is attacking, not doing damage. As such, you'll never "calm down" just because you aren't doing damage. I could see not doing an visible injury to a foe as being more likely to cause a berserk character to redouble his efforts as opposed to causing him to calm down and snap out of it. However, by RAW, whether you do damage or not is irrelevant to Berserk, so a Berserk character isn't likely to redouble his efforts or calm down.

As for not being able to make his blows connect, that doesn't seem relevant either. A Berserk character attacking a visible but intangible foe doesn't strike me as a case where the Berserk character is at some point just going to say, "Oh, sod it!" and quit trying to hit his foe. If he is unable to close with his foe due to an obstacle such as a chasm, I could see him chucking rocks at his foe with all his might. The fact that all the rocks are dropping to the floor of the chasm before they get close to the foe's side is immaterial. If he runs out of rocks, he may try tossing cabers at the foe.

A Berserk character is not making reasoned attacks, that's rather the point of the Disadvantage, so self-control rolls as permitted under the rules aside, IQ rolls to snap out of it for reasons other than those given are, at best, inappropriate. So, yes, once a character goes Berserk, if he can't down a foe or all of his foes are gone (including friends the Berserk character has designated as foes while Berserk), the condition is permanent, barring death or unconsciousness (including sleep).

[malloyd]

Rules wise, I suppose since you are still "fighting a battle" every few minutes you accumulate some more fatigue, which you don't recover, since fighting a battle is incompatible with resting. Eventually you'll run out and fall unconscious. What happens if you have some kind of fatigue regeneration that keeps up is less clear, but that's what happens in reality to people in a lot of persistent weird mental states, they rant and rave until they get exhausted, cry themselves to sleep or whatever, and (hopefully) wake up in a more normal mode.

[tbone]

This "time limit" question is a good one that pops up elsewhere too. A similar question I think I've posed on the forum is this: Say a martial artist "powers up" her Breaking Blow or Power Blow skills through long concentration. Having done so.... how long can she stay powered up before throwing a blow? The powered-up attack usually happens within seconds in the game, true, but can the martial artist power up that punch before entering the dungeon, then unleash the blow an hour later when the first monster shows up? Seems contrary to the spirit of the concept, but it's an unanswered question.

The best answer I've been able to come up with is "the condition lasts until the end of the scene". With "scene" being a completely arbitrary GM-defined thing, of course, and a concept that isn't explicitly utilized in GURPS like it is in some systems. Still, "the condition lasts until the GM says it no longer makes sense, which probably coincides with a change of 'scene'" is in line with the spirit of any game system AFAIK.

So, for that barbarian: When the enemies disappear from the scene, or remain frustratingly out of reach long enough that it just seems silly for the berserker to keep on raging, I'd rule that the initial scene has effectively ended, the barbarian calms down, and things move on. (You can still have fun with this case of unconsummated murder-rage; say, if the barbarian does again end up face-to-face with those escaped foes, maybe Berserk should kick in immediately and automatically.)

Unanswered questions about time limits would be a fine topic for a future How to Be a GURPS GM entry.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by tbone

This "time limit" question is a good one that pops up elsewhere too. A similar question I think I've posed on the forum is this: Say a martial artist "powers up" her Breaking Blow or Power Blow skills through long concentration. Having done so.... how long can she stay powered up before throwing a blow? .

Until she takes a move manoeuvre. You can't just walk around with the iron fist powered up.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Until she takes a move manoeuvre. You can't just walk around with the iron fist powered up.

I don't see that as a rule; is it stated somewhere, or are you suggesting it as a ruling? Either way, it seems sensible in spirit - but I expect won't play well. If it takes several (up to 32) seconds to ready a Power Blow or Breaking Blow to smash a monster, the monster's going to destroy the MA during that time, or just wander off. For cinematic combat use, that powered-up blow will probably have to be preceded by some movement.

"GM call" is of course a workable solution, but for this case and the OP's Berserk case, I'd welcome official designer's suggestions on how long these conditions should last.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by tbone

I don't see that as a rule; is it stated somewhere, or are you suggesting it as a ruling? Either way, it seems sensible in spirit - but I expect won't play well. If it takes several (up to 32) seconds to ready a Power Blow or Breaking Blow to smash a monster, the monster's going to destroy the MA during that time, or just wander off. For cinematic combat use, that powered-up blow will probably have to be preceded by some movement.

"GM call" is of course a workable solution, but for this case and the OP's Berserk case, I'd welcome official designer's suggestions on how long these conditions should last.

Both require you to make an attack, and optionally spend turns concentrating. Making an attack come first, so by definition doing anything breaks the usage. Though that isn't based on the phrasing in the Basic Set, but DFRPG. The Basic Set is a bit more vague.

As for cinematic combat, that's what high skill is for. Or tactics. Or just build the superpower. The skill needs a reasonable limitation to avoid being a cheap doubling of ST.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by tbone

A similar question I think I've posed on the forum is this: Say a martial artist "powers up" her Breaking Blow or Power Blow skills through long concentration. Having done so.... how long can she stay powered up before throwing a blow?

Until they have decided they will no longer strike the object/person they "powered up" to strike. Which usually involves stopping Concentrating and doing something else.

This is one part house Rules land and one part "thematic genre settings" for me:

This is isn't conjuring up a Fireball to hang on to until they toss it off, they are channeling their Chi against a specific target, decided when they start concentrating. They cannot change targets, missing the target doesn't "hold the charge" like a melee touch delivered spell, it's spent on the failed attack.

DFRPG spells it out nicely in the RAW:
"Each attack requires its own use of this skill. Declare your intent and pay 1 FP before rolling to hit..."

So, what is the intent of the "power-up"? to hit a foe, break a door, etc? Then the foe, door, etc must be there.

So each 'power-up' is intrinsically linked to an immediate, or nigh immediate attack. I do allow for some dithering, but as they have to keep Concentrating, that rather hard limits how long most Players are willing to 'hold a charge'.