New Reality Seeds

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by patchwork

Have you considered setting Thaw's precipitating event (hah) about a decade earlier, in, say, 1928? I think avoiding a Nazi state (or modifying it into unrecognizability) along with providing a very obvious explanation for the collapse of the global economy, so that nobody seriously re-examines New School economics in favor of Keynes, gives you a more exciting, creaky, dieselpunky sort of world to adventure in (the lack of economic understanding makes some homeliners worry - they're pretty sure the recolonizing efforts are going to go badly, and without the cautionary tale of the Nazis, there are certain very nasty failure possibilities in Thaw's short-term future...)

I did consider 1928 for awhile. Mainly because I wanted to have a setting like the film Metropolis. The German city with no outside place beyond the city and some reason for the worker housing being below the water table. Still, maybe you should do Thaw-2!

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Oh, it's definitely a personal bias, on my part. Any alt.history setting in which the Confederacy remains intact after about 1870 is pretty depressing, as far as I'm concerned (and increasingly unrealistic, given how much industrialization changes a society).

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that the 90-plus years of post Civil War racial oppression constitutes a terrible crime, and the best that could've happened would have been to destroy the plantation system, in the south, by redistribution of land to the freedmen (and summary execution of any former slave-owner who dared to object).

Better to have 10-15 years of continued insurgency that the military could have dealt with through the focused application of professional violence, than nearly a century of racial oppression backed by terrorism.

But, that's just me. YMMV.

Oh I agree completely. In fact I have one timeline upstream somewhere where the South pretty much was destroyed. But given human nature I don't see much of an alternative. Then again, it makes for a very useful GM alternative to Nazis/Zombies/Orcs to have Confederate neo-slavers to shoot at.

Sure, you can have some sort of Ghandi figure rise in the South after the Civil War and transform their society. Probably more likely than Babbage engines and zeppelins, but not nearly as entertaining.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Oh I agree completely. In fact I have one timeline upstream somewhere where the South pretty much was destroyed. But given human nature I don't see much of an alternative. Then again, it makes for a very useful GM alternative to Nazis/Zombies/Orcs to have Confederate neo-slavers to shoot at.

Sure, you can have some sort of Ghandi figure rise in the South after the Civil War and transform their society. Probably more likely than Babbage engines and zeppelins, but not nearly as entertaining.

I can't imagine a Ghandi figure lasting too long, in the South. The reason he lasted as long as he did in India is because, basically, the British were (and remain) a pretty civilized bunch.

When southerners slaughter people such as Medgar Evers, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King and other peaceful religious types, and even school children, then they don't qualify as "civilized."

http://www.splcenter.org/civil-right...rights-martyrs

[Gedrin]

Originally Posted by Drifter

The Missouri Compromise, dividing the free North from the slave-holding South, was a hard fought political battle. In this timeline it turned out differently, with the conservative, pro-slavery faction winning the upper hand; as each new state is admitted they get to decide if they want to be slave or free, instead of based north or south of an arbitrary line.

This is basically the popular sovereignty of the Kansas-Nebraska act (1854?), but as long as states are being admitted one for one, you don't get a Civil War. This is a time when the abolitionists are buying Liberia. So it's not like even the enlightened people even have the idea of multi-racial society. Heck, this is Gag Rule time, so basically people are telling abolitionist pols to shut up and take it. Without some sort of precipitating events, say a "Bleeding Kansas" or two, there's a missing element of verisimilitude, unless you're just going for CSA President Whiplash.

If you did want to go this way, you'd have to have majorities of new state citizens voting to become slave states, thus altering the balance of Senate power. Throw in a few instances of violent poll packing in the new state constitutional conventions, and you could get a war that way while retaining the dichotomy you're looking for.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Gedrin

This is basically the popular sovereignty of the Kansas-Nebraska act (1854?), but as long as states are being admitted one for one, you don't get a Civil War. This is a time when the abolitionists are buying Liberia. So it's not like even the enlightened people even have the idea of multi-racial society. Heck, this is Gag Rule time, so basically people are telling abolitionist pols to shut up and take it. Without some sort of precipitating events, say a "Bleeding Kansas" or two, there's a missing element of verisimilitude, unless you're just going for CSA President Whiplash.

If you did want to go this way, you'd have to have majorities of new state citizens voting to become slave states, thus altering the balance of Senate power. Throw in a few instances of violent poll packing in the new state constitutional conventions, and you could get a war that way while retaining the dichotomy you're looking for.

In this timeline, Calhoun or Dixie-7, the basic change is the triumph of traditional conservatives in 1819-20. Between my major change in 1820 finally resulting in war by 1827 only Maine and Missouri were admitted to the Union - Maine basically to counter pro-slavery Missouri, carved out of Massachusetts. Conservatives blocked this in this timeline, giving themselves the "slight edge" to push their agenda. There wasn't enough time to actually bring in more states to make a pro-slavery bloc you mention.

While slavery was an important issue, another big issue was the flood of British goods, and the tariff of 1816. The South liked those goods since they were cheaper than the Northern made stuff. And everything was exacerbated by the Panic of 1819, driving conservative ideology toward laisse-faire capitalism. This is where Webster and the abandonment of paper currency comes in. Printing extra currency was rightly blamed for massive inflation - but the proposed solution was even worse.

The spark of the early Civil War was the fact bounty hunters were taking either A)citizens of Northern states into slavery because of their skin color or B)valuable property. A minority in the North were looking at a multi-racial society, most were just outraged by armed bands kidnapping people off the streets. In any case the use of Federal troops against state and local militias went too far. A "War of Southern Aggression."

If you don't get a fiscal conservative victory in the 20s you can still get a viable Union, with some Northern states coming in as Slave states. But as each is admitted the tension caused by the slavery issue is relaxed, since it becomes more generally acceptable. To me this might even delay the Civil War, since its not at a crisis level when Lincoln is elected.

[Astromancer]

Try this, in Azoth-8 an alchemical revolution comes in California the 1930's. Jack Parson's creates a new power source which makes Electricity too cheap to meter and also develops an AntiGravity drive. In 1942 FDR declares victory in the Battle of the Atlantic because fleets of American "Flying Saucers" supply Britain far above the Nazi Wolf packs!

The Americans land on the Moon in 1946, the Russians get there in 1947, the UK, France, Canada, and Italy, join America and the USSR and all have Moonbases by 1960. West Germany, Brazil, China, and India, all found their moonbases in the next few years. Jack Parson's last few coded letters to Tesla are decoded in 1964 (he died as in our Earth's history) and FTL drive is figured out.

It's 1970, Doctor Who is now in color, Star Trek is broadcasting its fourth season (it's third season being an acknowledged dramatic triumph), and the first Interstellar colonies have been founded!

It a Mod/Psychedelic Space Age! Go-Go boots and Miniskirts to the stars!!!

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Try this, in Azoth-8 an alchemical revolution comes in California the 1930's. Jack Parson's creates a new power source which make Electricity to cheap to meter and also developes an AntiGravity drive. In 1942 FDR declares victory in the Battle of the Atlantic because fleets of American "Flying Saucers" suppy Britain far above the Nazi Wolf packs!

The Americans land on the Moon in 1946, the Russians get there in 1947, th UK, France, Canada, and Italy, join America and the USSR and all have Moonbases by 1960. West Germany, Brazil, China, and India, all found thier moonbases in the next few years. Jack Parson's last few coded letters to Tesla are decoded in 1964 (he died as in our Earth's history) and FTL drive is figured out.

It's 1970, Doctor Who is now in color, Star Trek is broadcasting it's fourth season (it's third season being an acknowleged dramatic triumph), and the first Interstellar colonies have been founded!

It a Mod/Psychedelic Space Age! Go-Go boots and Miniskits to the stars!!!

This is something I'd like to see expanded... also a setting that I'd like to visit, or perhaps live in.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

This is something I'd like to see expanded... also a setting that I'd like to visit, or perhaps live in.

Heck, you're creating a setting that has some of this same vibe, with the Dieselpunk dimension in Five Earths. :)

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Try this, in Azoth-8 an alchemical revolution comes in California the 1930's. Jack Parson's creates a new power source which make Electricity to cheap to meter and also developes an AntiGravity drive. In 1942 FDR declares victory in the Battle of the Atlantic because fleets of American "Flying Saucers" suppy Britain far above the Nazi Wolf packs!

The Americans land on the Moon in 1946, the Russians get there in 1947, th UK, France, Canada, and Italy, join America and the USSR and all have Moonbases by 1960. West Germany, Brazil, China, and India, all found thier moonbases in the next few years. Jack Parson's last few coded letters to Tesla are decoded in 1964 (he died as in our Earth's history) and FTL drive is figured out.

It's 1970, Doctor Who is now in color, Star Trek is broadcasting it's fourth season (it's third season being an acknowleged dramatic triumph), and the first Interstellar colonies have been founded!

It a Mod/Psychedelic Space Age! Go-Go boots and Miniskits to the stars!!!

Sweet. This is a fun one, and you should expand on the setting - I have a question or two...

Does Parson promote Crowley's Thelema religion? Does he summon the goddess Babalon (aka Marjorie Cameron) to Earth? Is L. Ron Hubbard considered the Anti-Christ? In as much as he tried to dupe Parson and steal his would-be goddess...

Sounds like there is a Cold War after all, but the world is much more multipolar. With energy needs met and transport pretty easy, is it only ideology that divides the world?

With all power needs met there is no need to develop the Middle Eastern oil fields. Hitler and Stalin still murder a lot of Jews, so I would guess Israel is still established.

If Doctor Who and Star Trek are popular, AND we have an FTL drive - how does that work? Writers usually can't come up with anything so interesting as reality. While DW is more "mythic" in scope and can avoid a lot of story problems, Star Trek might run into the problem of being overwritten by events on the ground. I suspect we haven't found any aliens yet, and we might not be so happy if we do find some.

[ericthered]

I have been watching a good number of documentaries on marine mammals. A number of clever hunting tactics by dolphins and whales have been mentioned, frequently with the observation that these techniques are confined to either small genetic lines or even specific individuals.

I've also been reading on 'what makes man man' and one answer seems to be full abstract language. So what happens if you give a species of dolphin full language:

1) you probably have a single species of dolphin displace most of the others. some species will survive, but I'm going to guess they will occupy edge niches: polar specialists, river dolphins, and so forth. Killer whales are special here -- they will likely prey on the dolphins, so will be both hard to eliminate and very desirable to eliminate. They also eat a different diet.

2) domestication. The simplest domestication will be getting something capable of fending off orcas to follow the dolphins around. Canidates include large whales, but they also include killer whales themselves.

3) Wide spread clever hunting techniques. This may even extend to herding and trying to protect fish from other predators.

3) Human interactions. There are two opposed effects here. On one hand, humans fishers will face determined opposition from intelligent, coordinated, large owners of the fish stocks. On the other hand, Its now possible to make treaties and mutually beneficial deals between the two species. Even if such arrangements tend to be temporary.

This isn't a single world seed. There are a number of variations possible. I also haven't decided on the optimal dolphin species here. I considered orcas, but I think you get more fertile ground if you go for something smaller. You should also not use true porposies as your species: they vocalize outside the human hearing range, which reduces dramatic possibilities.

The series is called porpoise.