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Old 02-26-2008, 07:31 PM   #1
b-dog
 
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Default Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

The faery goblin-kin are faeries who are nasty and cruel so their appearance grew to resemble that. They used to live in the faery realm but they were eventually sentenced to the underworld. There they dug geat tunnels and warrens in the faery realm. They waited to exact revege. There were many small skirmishes but the goblins always lost. It wasn't until a groups of elves, who were also nasty and wicked, decided to conspire with the goblins to overthrow the good faeries. A rumor that can't be true said that they were led by the elf queen Arachnia. In any case, the war was terrible and it ripped open the faery realm and allowed the faeries to enter the mundane world.

After the war, some good faeries stayed in the mundane world, they became elves, gnomes, dwarves, halflings and other of the more magical cousins like leprechauns and pixies. They became mortal but always had a connection to the faeryland.

Some evil faeries chose to stay in the mundane world, these became the goblins, orcs, trolls, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and many others. They became mortal but they still dig their great warrens and search for revenge. These evil faeries were completely cut off from the faery realm so they lost all of their magical powers and were sentenced to mortality. A man of wealth and taste took pity on the evil faeries. He decided to return some of the evil faeries magical powers and even immortality in return for services. The ones who had their magical powers returned and immortality restored, became subject to powers of good, scripture would repell them, and they couldn't live without mana. Iron didn't seem to affect them as many loved sharp knives. Others who weren't granted magical powers were unaffected by holy magic or mana. They were promised a place in the next world, however in return for their services.

The magical evil faeries became known as Red Caps, Boggarts, Boogie men, medusae, night hags, sea hags, banshees formorians, gremlins, doppelgangers and sluaghs.
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

Interesting take on them. Are we going to see some stat blocks for any of these? :)
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

It's a very interesting take. However, you might want to take a step back from declaring all non-human races to be fey. In particular, dwarves, halflings, and (ogre-sized) giants (along with gnomes, depending on exactly how you play them) don't really need any magic to explain them. There's something not terribly different from a halfling in our own family tree (H. floresiensis), showing that it could happen in a fantasy world (perhaps more likely to, given a magical environment to cause evolutionary changes, such as stranding populations on islands).

Dwarves could be a shorter form of a Neanderthal - the bone structure and muscle density both fit, it's just the height that's wrong. Giants akin to those from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved could easily be a larger form of Neanderthal, for that matter, based on their build. This would also explain why the two races might not always get along - they're aware of a shared ancestry and some sort of ancient cultural split is responsible for the genetic differentiation that occurred.
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

As far as why I feel that halflings, dwarves, ogres and other non-magical beings were from the faery realm is because I wanted them to keep their faery tale natures. Halflings, although they are not magical, live in idyllic hobbit towns, basically a fairy tale setting. Dwarves were in some tales magical, they forged magic weapons and some had powers. If they lose their faery legacy, then they become merely mundane short humanoids. I think that the natures of halflings and dwarves are sort of different than would evolve. Halflings love pleasure and they love to sit around and enjoy nature. Dwarves love working, mining, metal smithing and have a obsession with money. Goblins are tricky and love cruel pranks. Orcs are bullies and love to fight. They are manifestations of traits, just like faeries. And for instance, some dwarves will get the advantage that when they forge weapons just by their magical nature they will be able to make magic items. They will never cast a spell, the items just become magical when they make it. This is similar to when a leprechaun makes magic shoes or when faeries spin straw into gold thread, it just happens when they do it they weren't mages or they never learned a spell for it.

Goblins, orcs, trolls, ogres and hobgoblins also have a nasty disposition that is just part of the way they are. They are not like humanoids that evolved which when they are supplied enough food and have their needs met then they will be content. Goblin-kin will not be content, they have a deep enjoyment od causing mischief. Not all of them are evil, butthey do have a nature that is at least mischievious. Plus, why would an evolved creature dig endless caverns and fight endless wars? Faeries just do things because that is what they do, not because it makes sense.

Creatures that I would consider to have evolved would be creatures like apemen, snakemen, fishmen and ratmen. I guess mainly, I feel if it is a humanoid in a myth or legend it should be a faery, if it is a recently made up one then maybe it evolved in a magical world.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:59 AM   #5
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonsword
It's a very interesting take. However, you might want to take a step back from declaring all non-human races to be fey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog
Dwarves were in some tales magical, they forged magic weapons and some had powers. If they lose their faery legacy, then they become merely mundane short humanoids. (...) They are manifestations of traits, just like faeries.
I like very much this approach about the whole category of non-humans as diferent types of faeries. It is ok with myth and folklore, where "faeries" often encompasses a lot of different morally ambiguous daimonic beings -dwarves, goblins, sprites... not only "elves"-, acting as intermediate "spirits" in ancient cultures and worldviews.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonsword
Dwarves could be a shorter form of a Neanderthal - the bone structure and muscle density both fit, it's just the height that's wrong.(...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog
Creatures that I would consider to have evolved would be creatures like apemen, snakemen, fishmen and ratmen. I guess mainly, I feel if it is a humanoid in a myth or legend it should be a faery, if it is a recently made up one then maybe it evolved in a magical world.
However, I don't see the point of adding transformist evolutionism considerations here (1). This is Fantasy, and "transformism" here is not more than the result of a divine or magical curse/punishment upon someone, turning him into a completely different creature or into a monster. There aren't evolution in that, because the phenomenon obeys to a deliberate will using magical powers and it happens in a sudden and ultimate way.

On the other hand, Fantasy is a genre where divine forces and gods do exist and mantain by default some degree of relation with the created world (trough the magical mana, holiness...), so transformist evolutionism, itself derived from the inexistence of any god(s) or magical forces acting upon the world, doesn't fit here. In Fantasy, gods conceive in their minds and material reality follows. In Fantasy there are magic and powers working upon the world. So I think while designing Fantasy stuff there are no need of trying to keep that sort of impossible agreement with a modern and so much different and exclusive worldview. That would result in incoherency with the genre.



Not only different but also mutually exclusive worldviews

Transformist evolutionism is a reasoning deriving from the modern view claiming the only "real principle" is matter: a "principle" regarded as having in itself the intrinsic power of being able to pass it alone from potency to act (2), denying any need, involvement or reality of any other principle different to that matter.

In this modern view, the entire cosmos is "diminished" to a single effective dimension, the horizontal one, denying in a single-handed manner two essential Fantasy motifs: Worlds Within Worlds (Campaigns, p. 521) and Above and Below (Fantasy, p. 40).

Differently than this, Fantasy do assumes a different cosmology and thus a different set of principles, often portrayed as gods of different sex. Because "Above and Below" matters, being here a vertical and spatial symbolism (heaven/up, matter/down) indicative of the main cosmologic principles and depicting wich of them is in act (the upper) and wich principle remains in potency (the lower), the default assumption here for the origin of life and the existence of different creatures is the simple and already known idea of causation from above (divine or magical, it isn't too important here: in any case that causation from above is the acting of the upper essential principle upon the lower or substantial, the matter). Again, the transformist evolutionist approach for explaining the existence of life and the existence of different creatures is the modern horizontal worldview what makes all derivating from a single cosmological principle (matter). And that is one of the traits defining scientifism in opposition to any mythological or fantasy worldview.


Summarizing:

Transformist evolutionism is the result of a modern worldview, while the assumption of causation from above is the fantastic, magical or mythological approach about the life and the existence of different creatures. Lacking of any true agreement between them, both different cosmologies are by definition mutually exclusive. In roleplaying fiction, that means by default (Fantasy / Dungeon Fantasy assumptions usually are "by default") both genres or settings aren't compatible. Unless you want to create something just weird...!



(1) You could add Bio-Tech stuff into a Fantasy setting, but the result would be twisted and incoherent if the Bio-Tech stuff isn't handled properly and in small amounts.

(2) So, matter would be "the only one creator" and simultaneously the very substance for shaping that creation. However this doesn't fit at all with mythological cosmologies because the very relation between potency and act presuppose necessarily the interplay of at least two different principles as spirit-matter, essence-substance, not only one.
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Old 02-27-2008, 11:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

Evolution or, more specifically, the principle of adaptation in response to environmental change, is not incompatible with fantastic actors like gods, wizards, fey, and the like. You're also bringing specific constraints on change, such as the gradual adaption of existing structures, into play when I didn't mean for them to be necessarily a restraint. Magic, as an active force, can sidestep an enormous amount of purely physical constraints, and a fantastic world wouldn't necessarily need the long time scales and gradual changes of existing structures to produce a new form that we see on Earth. Also, my invocation of evolution was tied more to the fact that I was positing a 'natural' existence of certain fantasy races, apart from the fey, than a desire to impose strict real-world biology on the matter. I was using evolution as a conceptual tool that was available if the original poster wanted to use it.

Setting all of that aside, I'll also add that, like any tool in worldbuilding, evolution should only be used if it enhances whatever effect the worldbuilder is going for. B-dog indicated that it doesn't. I like the basic idea, I really do, I just wasn't certain that he wanted to attribute all the non-human races to fey ancestry, so I presented an alternative. If you're going for a more classical fairy tale feel (I'm usually not), fey ancestry is more useful than evolution, because you don't have to invoke unusual social constructs to explain why the races have the traits you want them to have. (Although divine command and influence is an unusual social construct from that point of view! Magic and other fantastic elements dramatically widen a worldbuilder's toolkit!)
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Old 02-27-2008, 03:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

OK, I will try explain why I like to have non human races like elves, dwarves, halflings ect, come from the faery realm. There is a problem when you have many "ancient" races. If elves, dwarves and gnomes were an ancient race in the material world then how would dinosaurmen, fishmen and other of these types of races remain an ancient race?The two groups would have known each other if they had lived together from ancient times. There would be no mystery or secret cities to discover. If, however the elves, dwarves and gnomes came from the faery world they would be an ancient race that has come to the material world. Plus there are many stories of faeries coming into the material realm.

But, ultimately, I want the "bad" guys to have ancient and alien societies for the PCs to rediscover. Dinosaurmen are one of the bad guys I like most. If you want to discover ancient cities of the shadow elves in my world, you will have to go to the faery realm underworld.
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

*nods* Fair enough. You're focusing on a more active relationship between Faerie and the mortal realm, which is definitely a viable campaign structure, even if it's not one I tend to use very often. I'm interested to see where you go with this, both in terms of fluff and crunch.

On the "ancient contact" front, I'll note that, historically, humans do lose track of quite a bit and generally have a limited perception even of cultures that are nominally in contact. Long-lived races like the elves and dwarves (particularly elves and dwarves, who generally seem to have a greater cultural continuity than other races and are less prone to catastrophic losses of past knowledge) would work against that, of course.

Have you considered the presence and, if present, the political dimension of the "fey courts"? Are elves and dwarves rivals for political power among the Seelie? Where do so-called "high fey" like the sidhe (or other noble fey) fit in, if they exist at all? Do the Unseelie races coordinate at all, or are they just a bunch of loose cannons?
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

Quote:
If elves, dwarves and gnomes were an ancient race in the material world then how would dinosaurmen, fishmen and other of these types of races remain an ancient race?
How many aeons have you got? Fishmen, dinosaurmen, etc., can all fall and disappear over time, with only remnants retreating underwater, underground, etc., only to emerge later (perhaps when the stars are right).
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dungeon Fantasy Faery Goblin-kin

Have you considered the presence and, if present, the political dimension of the "fey courts"? Are elves and dwarves rivals for political power among the Seelie? Where do so-called "high fey" like the sidhe (or other noble fey) fit in, if they exist at all? Do the Unseelie races coordinate at all, or are they just a bunch of loose cannons?

Of course the the fey court has political drama. But, I assume most of the fey are happy as they live in an idyllic world with many festivals. Plus they enjoy many of the tasks they are doing. A dwarf, I would imagine really enjoys mining and metalsmithing, they are craftsmen by nature, Same with the leprechauns, they enjoy tailoring clothes and making shoes. Some are more mischievious, however, but they are not necessarily dark faeries. The dark faeries decided it was better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. These faeries were driven underground or to remote isolated areas of the faery realm. The Faeries who were driven out became the Unseelie court while the one who remained became the Seelie Court.

In my concept of the faery world, there many battles and many skirmishes among the fey but there was honor. The ones who did not have honor were expelled to less desirable places. In my story, it is Arachnia. who unites all of the fey who were sent underground to remote locations ( the Unseelie ). She then murdered the elf-king and had many of the faery guests slaughtered so all of the other faery kings (dwarf king, sidhe king, gnome king ect. ) decided she must be expelled from the faery realm. This started a war between the faeries. This ripped open the faery realm and allowed the elves, dwarves ,trolls goblins ect. to come to the mortal realm in my game world. Before this time the faeries were able to come to the mortal realm under special conditions but they were never able to stay long. The sidhe were the ones who turned Arachnia into a spider and cast her into Hell.

Elves and dwarves have different natures but they get along in the faery realm. The have different niches, plus there is plenty for everyone. In the mortal real, elves and dwarves must compete against each other, which is what has caused conflict. When the fey moved to the mortal realm they had conlicts over resources and territory just like other mortals. They did, however, keep their fey nature.
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