Customizing TL 4 Firearms (Barrels and Breeches)

[Landwalker]

Simply put, I'm curious as to what would be good baselines for customizing TL 4 firearms in two different ways. I could have sworn I saw this mentioned somewhere here within the last month, but my search-fu and short-term memory are both as weak as ever.


The first customization: Multi-barreled firearms.

It seems clear that adding a second (or third, or fourth, etc.) barrel to a TL 4 firearm would increase both the cost and the weight of the weapon, but I simply have no idea what reasonable numbers would be. The only existing metric I have is that from the Liber Mechanika, part of the Iron Kingdoms RPG line from Privateer Press, which recommends increasing weight by 30% and cost by 75% for each barrel added. Unfortunately the Iron Kingdoms isn't exactly a hallmark of realism or even sensibility.

I'm not looking for a duck's foot-style multi-barrel weapon, but rather one in the spirit of this: http://images.send.com/127957_big.jpg (Perhaps after the time period I'm interested, but it still gets the point across).

(Edit: Low-Tech appears to offer two single-to-double-barrel comparison: The Fowling Gun on LT.92 and the Jäger Rifle on LT.94. Although they both seem to translate to "A little less than double the weight," the price scaling certainly doesn't match up.)



The second customization: Creating breachloading varieties of traditionally muzzle-loading TL 4 weapons. Comparing the Breachloading Carbine and the Jäger Rifle from LT.94, it seems like a straight switch might drop damage by 1d for a rifle and have some reductive impact on range and weight as well, but the breachloader is also a lighter weapon, so I don't know how much of that difference is caused by the loading method and how much is caused by other aspects of the weapon design. It also seems like a 1d reduction for pistols would be far too severe.



So, if this has been brought up before, can anyone with better search skills or recollection point me in the right direction? And if not, how should such customizations be handled?

Cheers.

[Jerron]

These are called Drilling guns, based on the German word for 3 because they frequently had 3 barrels. HT108 has a few, and pistols were called Pepperboxes. Hopefully the right terms will help your Search-Fu, even google should turn up a bunch of refs with those terms plugged in. :)

Some called fixed barreled pistols pepperboxes; others included multi-barrel revolvers, and this use is debatable but a small distinction, so you might want to be aware there are 2 types if you're searching.

[Landwalker]

I'm well aware that GURPS High-Tech has pepperboxes, but even disregarding the "High-Tech" part, that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a mechanic for adding barrels to existing weapons, like a Dragoon Pistol or a Fusil de Chasse.

That, and for converting weapons such as those to breachloaders.

[Kalzazz]

At one point in discussions in the chat room it was come up with the idea +40% might work

[Polydamas]

GURPS 3e Vehicles had one set of suggested rules. I think each barrel added around 60% to weight.

According to this thread, the Fusil Ordinaire and Fusil de Chasse were supposed to have 4.5 lb barrels and weigh 6.5 lbs. That suggests at least +70% weight per extra barrel.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

GURPS 3e Vehicles had one set of suggested rules. I think each barrel added around 60% to weight.

According to this thread, the Fusil Ordinaire and Fusil de Chasse were supposed to have 4.5 lb barrels and weigh 6.5 lbs. That suggests at least +70% weight per extra barrel.

Vehicles for 3e actually used the mechanic of +30% weight per added barrel. I don't know how historical that is though...

[Landwalker]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Vehicles for 3e actually used the mechanic of +30% weight per added barrel. I don't know how historical that is though...

30% seems awfully generous, though +60-70% weight seems reasonable (not that I would personally know either way). For the sake of simplicity, I'd be inclined to apply the same multiplier to base cost, although even +70% base cost might be generous for a multiple-barrel weapon.

That still leaves the question of converting a traditional muzzle-loader into a breach-loader. The effect on reloading time is easy enough to work out for longarms, since it's right there in High-Tech (p.86) and Low-Tech (p.95). Unfortunately, neither book has reloading times for breachloading pistols. Muzzleloading pistols take half as long as muzzleloading muskets to reload (20 seconds versus 40 seconds), but putting a breachloading paper-cartridge pistol on the same reload time (five second) as a fixed-ammo breachloaders seems, again, too generous.

And of course, I am completely blind as to the potential damage effects of a breachloading version of a muzzleloading weapon.

[pyratejohn]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

The second customization: Creating breachloading varieties of traditionally muzzle-loading TL 4 weapons. Comparing the Breachloading Carbine and the Jäger Rifle from LT.94, it seems like a straight switch might drop damage by 1d for a rifle and have some reductive impact on range and weight as well

I'm not sure a straight comparison between the two is appropriate. The breechloading carbine found in LT is based on an example given to Henry VIII around the year 1537. The design was less than solid. Exploding gases weren't contained in the breech as efficiently as on latter breechloaders, thus contributing to a reduction in the amount of damage the weapon is capable of.

Originally Posted by Landwalker

but the breachloader is also a lighter weapon, so I don't know how much of that difference is caused by the loading method and how much is caused by other aspects of the weapon design. It also seems like a 1d reduction for pistols would be far too severe.

See above.

Originally Posted by Landwalker

And if not, how should such customizations be handled?

That's tricky, because realistically I don't recall ever reading about a period muzzleloader being converted into a breechloader. In TL4, and heck, even into TL5 for that matter, breechloaders are specialty items, made as playthings for the idle rich (TL4), or as tools of war for elite or specialist troops (TL5).

The ultimate in blackpowder breechloading flintlock rifles is possibly the Ferguson rifle. If I needed a breechloader at TL4, I'd probably use that stats for the Jaeger from LT, revise the loading time down to that of a breechloader, and increase the price to that of a Very Fine weapon (see B280), but without the corresponding increase in Malf or Acc.

Here's a nice video of a reenactor firing his Ferguson rifle. Note, he is not taking an aim action, but firing for speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2CFF...eature=related

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by pyratejohn

That's tricky, because realistically I don't recall ever reading about a period muzzleloader being converted into a breechloader. In TL4, and heck, even into TL5 for that matter, breechloaders are specialty items, made as playthings for the idle rich (TL4), or as tools of war for elite or specialist troops (TL5)

The America Army converted some springfield muzzle loading rifles into "trap door" breach loaders when that type of action was developed , but this was definitly TL 5 {both the conversion and the base muzzleloader} .
They soon stopped and simply bought new built trapdoor springfields though , so I don't know how successful the conversion was nor how expensive but assume it wasn't worth the continued effort . The details probably exist somewhere on the internet {or one could go dungeon crawing into one of those forgotten repositories I believe were called libraries in ancient times :)} .

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Landwalker

That still leaves the question of converting a traditional muzzle-loader into a breach-loader. The effect on reloading time is easy enough to work out for longarms, since it's right there in High-Tech (p.86) and Low-Tech (p.95). Unfortunately, neither book has reloading times for breachloading pistols. Muzzleloading pistols take half as long as muzzleloading muskets to reload (20 seconds versus 40 seconds), but putting a breachloading paper-cartridge pistol on the same reload time (five second) as a fixed-ammo breachloaders seems, again, too generous.

And of course, I am completely blind as to the potential damage effects of a breachloading version of a muzzleloading weapon.

Well, 3e Vehicles also discusses breachloaders, which are 50% heavier for the same calibre and power. TL 4- breachloaders also took a heavy hit to Malf, presumably because of their propensity for rupturing the breach. This probably explains why the breachloader in Low Tech is lower damage - it would use less powder to avoid overpressure.

Again, I don't know how historical this is, or how compatible with 4e. Just thought I'd let you know how GURPS used to handle these things.