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Old 05-02-2014, 05:03 AM   #1
momothefiddler
 
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Default [RPM] Altered Traits

I had thought that Altered Traits was basically "if the other categories don't cover it, build it as an advantage", but that's pretty definitely not the case. For instance, Intercom (T:RPM 45) is just the Sense+Duration+Range costs, and doesn't include Telecommunication for both, which would likely more than double the cost. Yet Mantle of Glory is a Greater Strengthen effect in addition to the 60 points for Terror.

In the Transmogrification thread, Ghostdancer said that Altered Traits is about whether control of the ability is part of casting or given to the subject:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Put another way, transforming a stone statue into a living breathing version of itself requires a Greater Transform Matter + Greater Transform Body + Greater Create Mind (and that's RAW), but requires no Altered Traits. You almost never use Altered Traits unless it's adding a ability that's under the control of the subject, not the caster. In this case, the subject cannot change shapes back and forth, therefore you don't need Altered Traits.
Later on, PK said that Altered Traits is about the baseline of what a thing is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
Nope. The point of a Transform turning a person into, let's say, an animal is that it turns them into a baseline version of that animal. They get whatever the stats for that animal are. You'd only need to use Altered Traits if you wanted to add additional advantages, disadvantages, or attribute modifiers to that template (e.g., a "winged cheetah" would need another 30 points worth of Altered Traits, unless winged cheetahs were something that already existed in your game).
In addition, Transmogrification doesn't include Altered Traits to change you into something else, while Sylph Form does - presumably this indicates that there are no actual beings in the baseline RPM world with Body of Air? What's more, Haste includes Altered Traits even though the Speed can't be turned off by the subject and there exist "faster humans" to match up to. And there probably aren't any normal humans wandering around with DR6, couldn't I get the benefits of Ghost Shirt and more (admittedly with some drawbacks, but...) by turning into a demon or some other supernatural being with great DR and other advantages, paying for the upgrade from Control (5) to Transform (8) out of the 30 I don't have to pay for Altered Traits?

Basically, I don't understand what needs Altered Traits and what I can do (significantly more cheaply) just by effects.
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:17 AM   #2
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Quote:
Originally Posted by momothefiddler View Post
Basically, I don't understand what needs Altered Traits and what I can do (significantly more cheaply) just by effects.
It can be tricky, but basically:
  • Does the spell put the effect under the control of the caster? Example: A caster can make someone fly with just a Greater Control Body effect. The flight is under his control. Alternatively, he can use the same effect and use Altered Traits, Flight now the subject can fly on his own as long as the Duration lasts.
  • Does the spell significantly enhance the subject's abilities? Example: A caster turns a human into a cat using Greater Transform Body which lasts for the Duration of the spell. The transformation is not under the subject's control. Alternatively, he can add Altered Traits, Alternate Form to all the subject to turn into a cat at will.
  • Does the spell by dint of it's spell effect already do what you need it to do? Example: a caster would not need Altered Traits, Slave Mentality or Reprogrammable to use a Greater Control Mind effect to enslave a target.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

It's an art, not a science -- the "correct" answer will always be up to the GM. No exceptions.

I find this one question is key:

When I describe what this spell does, do I find myself referencing specific GURPS advantages and/or disadvantages that the subject gains?

In my opinion, Haste can only be meaningfully phrased as "The subject gains ATR 1" or some combination of words that effectively mean the same thing. So it has Altered Traits. But Intercom seems best described as "The subjects can hear each other's thoughts." So it doesn't. If you think it should, and you're the GM, then you're right and now it requires it.
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Well, you're right that that's not a science. Distressingly so. It seems that if I was the GM, there'd be few, if any, spells that were just Effects, since there are few things that can't be built with the spell modifiers and advantages and I guess I tend to think in those terms more than not.

Also, I'm curious. Haste (T:RPM 44) uses the Altered Traits spell modifier to give the target +1.00 Basic Speed for 20 energy. Is that necessary to allow the subject to control the movement, as Ghostdancer pointed out, or could that spell also have used the Speed spell modifier to give the target a static B.S. of 10 for 4 energy?
Or perhaps that merely gives a Basic Move of 10 and you should also add a +2 to Dodge for another 4 energy?
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Quote:
Originally Posted by momothefiddler View Post
Well, you're right that that's not a science. Distressingly so. It seems that if I was the GM, there'd be few, if any, spells that were just Effects, since there are few things that can't be built with the spell modifiers and advantages and I guess I tend to think in those terms more than not.
Try not to be too harsh. Any flexible system like RPM is going to be more art than science even though there is a clear framework - this is a feature, not a bug. Ask yourself when designing a spell "Is this paying for it twice?" and that will usually guide you to the answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momothefiddler View Post
Also, I'm curious. Haste (T:RPM 44) uses the Altered Traits spell modifier to give the target +1.00 Basic Speed for 20 energy. Is that necessary to allow the subject to control the movement, as Ghostdancer pointed out,
That's a passive trait, so no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momothefiddler View Post
or could that spell also have used the Speed spell modifier to give the target a static B.S. of 10 for 4 energy?
Or perhaps that merely gives a Basic Move of 10 and you should also add a +2 to Dodge for another 4 energy?
Nope, you're boosting someone in a manner that doesn't require the caster to concentrate on it. Using the flying example above, you'd need to take Concentrate maneuvers for Greater Control Body to "TK" someone around, whereas if you gave Altered Traits, Flight you don't (and it's under there control).
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
Nope, you're boosting someone in a manner that doesn't require the caster to concentrate on it. Using the flying example above, you'd need to take Concentrate maneuvers for Greater Control Body to "TK" someone around, whereas if you gave Altered Traits, Flight you don't (and it's under there control).
Er, not sure I understood what you're saying there. Are you saying the Speed spell modifier can't be used to increase someone's Basic Move because it requires the direct control of the caster?
On that note, would it be possible for the caster to increase their own Basic Move that way?
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
It can be tricky, but basically:
  • Does the spell put the effect under the control of the caster? Example: A caster can make someone fly with just a Greater Control Body effect. The flight is under his control. Alternatively, he can use the same effect and use Altered Traits, Flight now the subject can fly on his own as long as the Duration lasts.
  • Does the spell significantly enhance the subject's abilities? Example: A caster turns a human into a cat using Greater Transform Body which lasts for the Duration of the spell. The transformation is not under the subject's control. Alternatively, he can add Altered Traits, Alternate Form to all the subject to turn into a cat at will.
  • Does the spell by dint of it's spell effect already do what you need it to do? Example: a caster would not need Altered Traits, Slave Mentality or Reprogrammable to use a Greater Control Mind effect to enslave a target.
Sorry for coming latter to the party, but I want to say that this post looks wrong to me.

One of the best things of RPM is that it at least tries to have some "logic'' + ''game balance'' inside the system, at least in my opinion.

The way that the rules work makes some stupid things that are possible in Mage: the Ascension became impossible in RPM, like opening a gate to the sun or to a black hole. The range modifier makes this nearly impossible in a fair way. This is important because the setting need a explanation of why a crazy suicide style mage dont destroy the world with a ritual (in ascension the technocracy is the ''god machine'' of the GM who saves the setting no matter how ridiculous this can be).

That said, I think that RPM can receive more "game-balancing" from PK in a Pyramid Article or even with the a "RPM Companion" sugestion.

About your reply:

1. By the rules the mage have control of the spell even without using altered traits. The only way to lose the control of the spell is making a Charm, the caster can even "auto dispell" the ritual if it is not a charm. Plus, concetration isnt a way to make a 12 hour ritual cheap, if you want more than momentany duration then pay the energy.

Quote:
AFTER CASTING
Once cast, the spell will last for whatever duration the caster chose. A caster may cancel all the effects of his own ritual before they expire. This takes one second and does not require a roll, but he must be free to move and speak. He has no other connection with the ritual (unless that was added as an effect); he doesn’t know how subjects react unless he can see them, he doesn’t instinctively know when it will end, etc.
The original caster may come back to extend the spell’s duration. At any time before the spell ends, he may work a new ritual, using the same Path skill.


2. About Mind Control, I think that is completely game breaking alowing Mind Control without Altered Traits. Slave Mentality and Reprogrammable are too cheap and I would add a limitation about one order/command for "spell effect" to add some game balance, then giving two orders like "buy a ice cream" and "commit suicide" increase the cost to two Greater Control Mind (X 5). Plus, dont make any sense a spell to compel someone to say the Truth need to pay for Compulsive Talking and Truthfulness but one ritual that can kill the subject costing less.

That said, the same logic applies with the Transmogrification ritual that need Altered Traits, but I would ask PK if he writted all rituals or maybe this is a small misconception of a collabolator (make sense to me).

Last but not least, if anyone want a specific ritual cheaper just allow the caster to buy a leveled perk of ritual mastery. 5 levels of one ritual is cheap and works best than breaking the entire system.

Last edited by 4rc4num; 02-25-2018 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Ok, I'm extrapolating here.

Below are three rituals done two ways. The first is one I created, the second CRR created in response to another poster, and the third is from T:RPM.

Are my conclusions correct?

Shrink

Effect under the control of the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
Typical Casting: Greater Transform Body [8] + Altered Traits: Shrinking [65] + Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3] + Duration: 1 hour [3]
Cost: 237 energy (79x3)
Effect NOT under the control of the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by X the Unknown View Post
Typical Casting: Greater Transform Body [8]+ Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3] + Duration: 1 hour [3]
Cost: 42 energy (14x3)
-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juca View Post
Second, an invisibility spell (The subject is turned invisible for the duration, and cannot carry anything) - Transform Body (8 points), adds advantage (Invisibility (affects machines, only substantial) for 56 points) and, lets say, duration of 10 minutes for 1 energy point. It is a Greater Effect, so the total cost is (8+56+1) x 3, or... 195 energy points, right?
I'm changing it slightly for simplicity.

Invisibility

Effect under the control of the target.

Typical Casting: Greater Transform Body [8] + Altered Traits: Invisibility [40] + Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3] + Duration: 1 hour [3]
Cost: 162 energy (54x3)

Effect NOT under the control of the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
Typical Casting: Greater Destroy Energy [5] + Weight, 300 lbs [3] + Duration, 10 minutes [1]
Cost: 27 energy (9x3)
-----

Body of Shadow

Effect under the control of the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T:RPM, p. 39
Typical Casting: Greater Transform Body [8] + Greater Transform Energy [8] + Altered Traits: Shadow Form [50] + Duration: 10 minutes [1] + Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3].
Cost: 350 energy (70x5)
Effect NOT under the control of the target.

Typical Casting: Greater Transform Body [8] + Greater Transform Energy [8] + Duration: 10 minutes [1] + Subject Weight: 300 lbs. [3].
Cost: 100 energy (20x5)

Is this right?

Last edited by X the Unknown; 01-21-2021 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 01-21-2021, 06:33 PM   #9
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Default Re: [RPM] Altered Traits

Yeah, that looks right.
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