How do you adjudicate initiating HTH?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Shostak

... From my perspective, allowing the HTH initiation during movement adds only confusion (and plenty of it), it opens the door to other thorny questions, like "What about set polearms and last-shot missile attacks?", and that is less fun for me than just following standard rules for movement and engagement and having the actions take place in adjDX order, as normal.

Good point. It's less of an issue if using the (what I have thought was the typical) interpretation that initiating HTH during movement was only possible from behind (where the victim can't do pole weapon attacks or last-shot missile attacks), but it could still be weird in the cases where the victim's friends do have pole weapons.

As you wrote, always handling HTH initiation as an action would avoid that. However it would also change some other things. What mainly comes to mind is, if you allow jumping people from behind during movement, then sometimes there's an interesting choice to seize an opportunity to do that when your side moves first. If HTH can only be an action, then to tackle someone from behind, you have to move second and hope they give you the chance, or have some other reason not to face you.

[Shostak]

One of my complaints with the RAW for HTH is that they are not internally consistent; some HTH initiations happen in movement, and others happen in the action phase. While I've opted to make it all happen as actions, I must admit that it might be interesting to define all HTH initiations as moves, with the caveat that this would require tweaking the engagment rules, the options for engaged figures, and polearms. This clears up some of the confusion and allows for some interesting tactical nuances, but it still leaves a bit up in the air.

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Good point. It's less of an issue if using the (what I have thought was the typical) interpretation that initiating HTH during movement was only possible from behind (where the victim can't do pole weapon attacks or last-shot missile attacks), but it could still be weird in the cases where the victim's friends do have pole weapons.

As you wrote, always handling HTH initiation as an action would avoid that. However it would also change some other things. What mainly comes to mind is, if you allow jumping people from behind during movement, then sometimes there's an interesting choice to seize an opportunity to do that when your side moves first. If HTH can only be an action, then to tackle someone from behind, you have to move second and hope they give you the chance, or have some other reason not to face you.

This is a really good point, and pushes me back toward the interpretation I've been using as opposed to the structurally simpler but still flawed reading that initiation is always part of action phase. Any rules interpretation that punishes you for winning initiative seems dumb!

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

It is inescapable that option O of p. 103 simply contradicts the quoted passage from p. 117. There is no reading of the two that makes them consistent with each other.

The quoted passage from 117 is narrowly citing an example of attempting HTH using option (b). How do we know? Because it's speaking of how to handle an attempt that comes during the movement phase. Yes it shoulda/coulda mentioned option (b) by name, and gone on to remind us that under a different option (o) the attempt to initiate hasn't even happened yet because that's when you have to wait for the action phase. 117 isn't contradicting 103, because it's an example of using option (b), whereas 103 is entirely about explaining option (o). No inconsistency here at all.

Originally Posted by larsdangly

...you have to do so [attempt entering HTH using option (o)] during the action phase if you became engaged as you approached

This sounds perilously close to the mistake I made in one of my earlier posts and had to correct later.

Making an approach during movement phase and stopping for any reason (including engagement) means you can't take option (o) during the action phase. It is now closed to you.

"(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts"

So if you want to attempt HTH on any turn you move, you have to end that movement in the opponent's hex as stipulated under option (b).

There is no third option to start HTH combat. There is no way within the RAW to run up to an opponent, coming to a full stop one hex short, and then on the same turn resume that forward motion to attempt HTH during the action phase.

Of course you could have a third option by house rule, or modify (b) and/or (o) by house rule -- please understand I'm not saying anyone can't play that way. All I'm saying is you can't call that RAW.

Is the Turn Sequence violated because the defender's 1d6 roll to keep the enemy out of their hex can occur during either phase of the Turn? The actual combat actions in HTH, options (t), (u), and (v) don't occur outside the action phase. Only the roll to see if the defender repels the intruder entering their hex might occur in the movement phase. That's rather necessary to settle where the figures' counters will be at the start of the action phase. I hardly think that compromises the Turn Sequence.

[larsdangly]

So you think the unstated intent was that you enter HTH from the front during movement phase for option (b) but during action phase (clearly stated) for option (o)? That seems irrational to me. A more reasonable explanation, in my opinion, is that the author got his wires crossed about how he really intended it to work and never got the two relevant rules passages into alignment with each other.

[Shostak]

Will SJ Himself be playing any TFT at Fnordcon? Could be a great opportunity to engage him on the question of HTH, so to speak. The question is how to initiate the conversation, and when?

[hcobb]

Questions to ask at the Saturday TFT panel:

1. Does option (b) Charge Attack's mention of entering HTH during movement negate stopping once engaged?
2. What's the procedure for a flying creature such as a gargoyle to enter a figure's hex?
3. Does the attacker get to make a HTH attack on the same turn that he enters into HTH by either option?

[Shostak]

Let's not forget entering into HTH from the front using option (b) against an opponent with a set polearm.

[larsdangly]

And, if the answers to the previous questions lean the issue toward the p. 117 passages, does that mean you don't stand behind the 'option (o)' explanation, which is clearly different?

[Skipper2921]

Or the Missile Weapon Last Shot.

I too believe it would be beneficial for the game to have an official clarification through some means - maybe a Hexagram article. If there are intended exceptions to rules, they are not laid out as well as the pole weapons and missile weapons exceptions. The interesting tactical nuances are what draw me to this game. I'd like to be sure I am playing as intended.