Thrown spells using missile weapon drange adjustments

[tomc]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I can think of many ways IQ 9 or 10 wizards can be very effective. And many ways they would be extremely powerful with the super-long-range thrown spells you suggested. They would be a nightmare for their opponents, and for GM's of clever players, and for players whose GMs were using such powers against them intelligently.

Sure. And I've done that to some extent. But I'm still interested in the effects of greater range for thrown spells, and not likely to be satisfied with a simple "don't do it". :)

Originally Posted by Skarg

This may come across as even more patronizing than I probably already often come across as, so apologies for that, but I think you need to playtest wizards more to appreciate how effective they can be when played well.

No worries. I started playing in '79, but not as often as I'd like.

Originally Posted by Skarg

The proposed change would make it easier for a wizard to be effective without having to be clever or to take risks or to use a lot of energy or to have more powerful spells. But that also means that clever wizards and wizards who are more powerful etc would be even more capable than they already are.

Good point. And I'm not trying to remove opportunities for cleverness, but wouldn't a greater thrown spell range also add new opportunities to do clever and interesting things? Clever people are always going to be clever. And yes, lazy people are always going to be lazy.

Originally Posted by Skarg

It'd be great for limiting magic item proliferation, though, and for brigandry and pacifism. Just use Break Weapon to break people's weapons from long range and run away, rest and come back till they're all out of weapons. Often wizards will be able to cast spells on people from so far away they may not even be seen, let alone identified.

Or hide in the bushes out of sight and cast Control Person and have the party attack itself, without them even knowing which way to try to run to find or avoid whoever was doing that to them.

Or Curse your foes from range.

Sincerely not trying to be a wiseacre here, but these ideas sound kinda fun to me.

Originally Posted by Skarg

Not to mention more powerful spells. "You're walking down the road when... someone at a distance cast Megahex Sleep on your whole party. Anyone have ST 20? No?"

Consider that ST 8, DX 16, IQ 16 (a 40 point wizard), about as powerful as they can get in the new system.

1) With RAW, at 6 hexes away he has a 50% chance of snoozing the group if they aren't spaced too far apart.

2) If you give him a "thrown spell" talent to double the range, he can stretch that out to 12 hexes.

3) Using missle spell DX adjustments, he can be 8 + 2x3*6 = 8+36 = 44 hexes out and hit half the time.

Now these ranges are the outer limit, since it's a 40 point (non-goblin!) wizard optimized for casting megahex sleep. I'm thinking I want something between #2 and #3, maybe -1 DX per megahex range.

Maybe this is part of a different (foreign?) magic system, that's just better at thrown spells.

Anyhow, I don't want to break anyone else's world. Thanks for your time and consideration. You've all given me interesting things to think about.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by tomc

A thrown spell talent is a neat idea, and the cost offsets some of the benefit. I might go for something more drastic, like reducing the DX penalty to half, but it's worth trying out both ways.

Comparing the two approaches and assuming the wizard in mine has Thrown Spell [spell] maxed-out at III, they get the same range penalties at the 5-6 hex range. At shorter range, my approach gives the greater benefit, and yours wins out after six, with DX penalties of -9 and -6 for my approach and yours, respectively at 12 hexes.

Even allowing a talent that confers erasing a single point of range penalty is powerful. I'd strongly caution against allowing more than three to be offset.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by tomc

... Good point. And I'm not trying to remove opportunities for cleverness, but wouldn't a greater thrown spell range also add new opportunities to do clever and interesting things? Clever people are always going to be clever. And yes, lazy people are always going to be lazy.
...
Sincerely not trying to be a wiseacre here, but these ideas sound kinda fun to me.
...
Now these ranges are the outer limit, since it's a 40 point (non-goblin!) wizard optimized for casting megahex sleep. I'm thinking I want something between #2 and #3, maybe -1 DX per megahex range.

Maybe this is part of a different (foreign?) magic system, that's just better at thrown spells.

Sure, and definitely, yes, it could be very fun/interesting/different to play in such a game, AS a wizard using easy long-range thrown spells on others, and figuring out wicked clever things to do to others.

It would also be very scary and paranoia-inducing to have to worry about other wizards doing such things to yourself and/or people you care about, and figuring out how to deal with that possibility.

It might not be so fun to be a non-wizard who can get victimized easily with little chance of warning, resistance, or avoiding getting hit with spells that can really mess you up from range and/or concealment. But if the intention is to explore what these wizards can do, that wouldn't be as much of an issue.

GM'ing the game trying to take into account the power dynamics of the world might be a bit tricky though. What would security precautions and the tactics of the powers and thugs of the game world be like if magic worked this way?

One scenario that comes to mind could be a world with very civilized wizards almost all of whom are for law and order and the greater good, well-behaved and/or very rare... and the PCs are responsible for tracking down rogue wizards causing mischief. How do you catch a wizard who can silently and without gesturing cast thrown spells at range?


Oh, and when calculating what you think capabilities can be like, don't forget about the Aid spell (Aid DX), and possible Attribute-adding items and potions or even wishes. Also consider that if a wizard can avoid being detected while casting, they may be able to afford to try multiple times until they succeed.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by Skarg

It would also be very scary and paranoia-inducing to have to worry about other wizards doing such things to yourself and/or people you care about, and figuring out how to deal with that possibility.

It might not be so fun to be a non-wizard who can get victimized easily with little chance of warning, resistance, or avoiding getting hit with spells that can really mess you up from range and/or concealment. But if the intention is to explore what these wizards can do, that wouldn't be as much of an issue.

So if these wizards turn out to be as super powerful as you suggest, they're going to be doing big scary things in the world. Would they even waste time on a nobody group of adventurers? I'm thinking they'd be up in the big leagues moving and shaking, rather than waiting for Snerg the Barbarian to roll an automatic hit with his crossbow. I bet a clever GM could come up with all sorts of courtly (underhanded) uses for most of the thrown spells.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by tomc

So if these wizards turn out to be as super powerful as you suggest, they're going to be doing big scary things in the world. Would they even waste time on a nobody group of adventurers? I'm thinking they'd be up in the big leagues moving and shaking, rather than waiting for Snerg the Barbarian to roll an automatic hit with his crossbow. I bet a clever GM could come up with all sorts of courtly (underhanded) uses for most of the thrown spells.

Well that's the sort of thing the GM would (hopefully) consider. It depends a bit on how common wizards are and so on. It doesn't take all that much to have some thrown spells - it's the rule change that makes them more powerful than before, but the new power is in a form that takes some consideration. I'd think that the powerful people in society would be even more interested than they already are in standard Cidri, to want wizards to help with their security and covert operations.

Unlike missile attacks, Thrown spells don't have any penalties other than range, so they'd be who you'd want up high on security detail, able to break a sniper's weapon or put an assassin to sleep, etc. Etc.

[hcobb]

I cast Explosive Gem on that powerstone attached to that staff on the other side of the room.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

I cast Explosive Gem on that powerstone attached to that staff on the other side of the room.

Explosive Gem is not a thrown (T) spell.

Speaking of thrown spells, does anyone else apply the -1 DX to hit a figure in an adjacent hex if the wizard can actually touch them? We have always used this houserule to avoid the penalty when the wizard wants to cast a spell on an ally standing next to them.

[hcobb]

ITL 140: "If a special method of DX adjustment for the spell is described, use it. Otherwise, treat range as for Thrown spells."

I.e. Explosive Gem is a ranged spell.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Explosive Gem is not a thrown (T) spell.

Speaking of thrown spells, does anyone else apply the -1 DX to hit a figure in an adjacent hex if the wizard can actually touch them? We have always used this houserule to avoid the penalty when the wizard wants to cast a spell on an ally standing next to them.

You mean, does anyone else not apply it?

We have applied the -1 even to friends at range 1, except when using GURPS or GURPS-inspired house rules that say a staff extends your reach and so if you touch someone with your staff there is no range penalty.

[JimmyPlenty]

You could just make the missile weapon spells a magic specific item.

If it does have to come directly from a wizard, increase the ST cost.

and/or force it to come directly from the wizard's ST, no powerstones or whatnot.