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Old 02-25-2023, 09:26 AM   #1
Kaslak
 
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Default TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

Hi all,

A small conondrum related to the availability or not of a specialized skill for all those scholars performing anatomical dissection and related drawings.

The related theories at low TL can of course be covered in my opinion, by expert skill (natural phylosophy). Especially the work of those academics that were reading the sources, recompiling them, and dismissing any observed deviation from Aristotle's observations as aberrations.

Physiology, as described, could overlap to the anatomical studies. If I did not misunderstand the technology level for medical technology in Low Tech, physiology not being listed means that it does not appear yet.

I was wondering if, similarly for Astronomy(Observational), it would be possible to allow Physiology(Observational Anatomy, for instance) at Low tech levels. That would be the skill of choice for pratictioners making their own observations.

Note that, as another example, it is stated that there was not a clear distinction between alchemy and chemistry, but the part of "alchemy" that actually worked (such as distillation, which is also a technique) in worlds without magic is Chemistry. Expert skill does not suffice if I understood, to do anything except perhaps winning an academic debate over phlogiston �� or getting some predictions right.

What do you think?

Last edited by Kaslak; 02-25-2023 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 02-25-2023, 11:10 AM   #2
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

The historical name for the skill you're looking at is "Anatomy." That turned into the study of "Anatomy and Physiology" in the late nineteenth century (TL5-6) as physiology became a practical science. That transformation required a few basic discoveries, like the circulation of the blood, a reasonable amount of chemistry, and the discarding of many mystical and vitalist ideas about life and the body.

At TL3-4, you can have an IQ/H skill with the same defaults as GURPS Physiology, but it only deals with anatomy. It is really quite detailed, but a fair amount of what it tells you about the function of organs is wrong. It's up to you if you call that "Physiology" or "Anatomy."

The availability of this skill can be influenced by cultural and legal rules. In Britain, dissection was entirely illegal from Roman times to the 16th century, and the supply of cadavers was quite limited until 1832, leading to "body-snatching" and similar adventures.
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Old 02-27-2023, 03:09 AM   #3
Kaslak
 
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The historical name for the skill you're looking at is "Anatomy." That turned into the study of "Anatomy and Physiology" in the late nineteenth century (TL5-6) as physiology became a practical science. That transformation required a few basic discoveries, like the circulation of the blood, a reasonable amount of chemistry, and the discarding of many mystical and vitalist ideas about life and the body.

At TL3-4, you can have an IQ/H skill with the same defaults as GURPS Physiology, but it only deals with anatomy. It is really quite detailed, but a fair amount of what it tells you about the function of organs is wrong. It's up to you if you call that "Physiology" or "Anatomy."

The availability of this skill can be influenced by cultural and legal rules. In Britain, dissection was entirely illegal from Roman times to the 16th century, and the supply of cadavers was quite limited until 1832, leading to "body-snatching" and similar adventures.
Thank you for your input, indeed what I had in mind is indeed that the physiology skill at TL 3/4 (if not less) is anatomy, with no posdibility to draw any conclusion behind anatomical parts list. I was thinking that allowing an optional specialization makes it an attractive choice compared to ( or in addition to) natural phylosophy.
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Originally Posted by Kaslak View Post
I was thinking that allowing an optional specialization makes it an attractive choice compared to ( or in addition to) natural phylosophy.
Natural Philosophy is defined as an Expert Skill, which implies only theoretical knowledge rather than actual practice. It might be simpler to make Anatomy a specialization of Physician.

A Natural Philosopher could tell you what Galen or Aristotle wrote about anatomy and the state of current accepted wisdom regarding the various organs and their functions, but they'd be at a loss if they had to open up a cadaver and make scientific observations.

Anything approaching modern forensic pathology would be a specialization of Surgery with Diagnosis as a prerequisite.
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:37 AM   #5
ericthered
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The availability of this skill can be influenced by cultural and legal rules. In Britain, dissection was entirely illegal from Roman times to the 16th century, and the supply of cadavers was quite limited until 1832, leading to "body-snatching" and similar adventures.
Note that chopping up animals during this same time period is quite common, and the average citizen saw more of it than we did. This is NOT the same as knowing what's in a human, but it is pretty close. Note that all of the major organs have old english names that are naturally part of the language, not latin ones.


So, I suppose the skill is Professional Skill (Butcher). He might be better at it than any of your scholars.
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Old 02-27-2023, 10:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Natural Philosophy is defined as an Expert Skill, which implies only theoretical knowledge rather than actual practice. It might be simpler to make Anatomy a specialization of Physician.

A Natural Philosopher could tell you what Galen or Aristotle wrote about anatomy and the state of current accepted wisdom regarding the various organs and their functions, but they'd be at a loss if they had to open up a cadaver and make scientific observations.

Anything approaching modern forensic pathology would be a specialization of Surgery with Diagnosis as a prerequisite.
On the matter of "natural philosophy" I seem to recall that one of the bestiaries recorded that the blood of a billy goat was hot enough to melt a diamond, which implied that the author had not only not done basic research, but had probably never spoken to a butcher either.

I also seem to recall that the Roman medical profession had a better idea of anatomy and function than more highly regarded Greek sources: IIRC the Greek consensus was that the brain was a radiator for cooling the blood, whereas Roman doctors, based on military data on head injuries, had figured out that it had at least something to do with thought and consciousness.

Heh. And whilst I was writing of butchers and the failure to communicate with them:

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Note that chopping up animals during this same time period is quite common, and the average citizen saw more of it than we did. This is NOT the same as knowing what's in a human, but it is pretty close. Note that all of the major organs have old english names that are naturally part of the language, not latin ones.


So, I suppose the skill is Professional Skill (Butcher). He might be better at it than any of your scholars.
Of course no-one knew at the time that we had most of the same organs as lunch did, but it's a fair point. As for the names for the organs, reminds me of the "English on the hoof, French on the plate" thing in naming meats ... only the other way around, which given who ate offal, wouldn't be that much of a surprise.

Last edited by The Colonel; 02-27-2023 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 02-27-2023, 11:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Of course no-one knew at the time that we had most of the same organs as lunch did, but it's a fair point. As for the names for the organs, reminds me of the "English on the hoof, French on the plate" thing in naming meats ... only the other way around, which given who ate offal, wouldn't be that much of a surprise.
Huh?

Anyone who has both gone hunting and seen combat is going to know about the similarities. The Old testament is full of references to specific body parts (Heart and Kidneys coming up the most often). To be fair, they're not going to have much of an idea of what they do.
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Old 02-27-2023, 01:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
I also seem to recall that the Roman medical profession had a better idea of anatomy and function than more highly regarded Greek sources: IIRC the Greek consensus was that the brain was a radiator for cooling the blood, whereas Roman doctors, based on military data on head injuries, had figured out that it had at least something to do with thought and consciousness.
I don't think it was actually the consensus. Aristotle did put forth that idea of the brain as a radiator for cooling overheated blood. But there were other Greeks—I think I have read that some of his successors at his school were even among them—who pointed out physiological evidence for the brain as the seat of consciousness.
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Old 02-27-2023, 02:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
On the matter of "natural philosophy" I seem to recall that one of the bestiaries recorded that the blood of a billy goat was hot enough to melt a diamond, which implied that the author had not only not done basic research, but had probably never spoken to a butcher either.
... or whoever the concept came from had been hoodwinked into buying a piece of rock salt that they thought was a diamond, then when it came into contact freshly-spilled goat blood, they found the "diamond" melted (well, dissolved). They decided it was specifically a billy goat when blood from a female goat failed to have the same effect on another diamond (this one actually being diamond - or perhaps quartz). Or perhaps, now that I've come across (some of) the reference, the "he-goat" being described was something distinct from the domesticated goat, essentially a mythological creature.
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Old 02-27-2023, 03:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: TL3-4 anatomical dissections: physiology specialization or natural phylosophy?

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Huh?

Anyone who has both gone hunting and seen combat is going to know about the similarities. The Old testament is full of references to specific body parts (Heart and Kidneys coming up the most often). To be fair, they're not going to have much of an idea of what they do.
Yeah, you'll know what you get in an animal, but if you're not allowed to open up a human, you won't know that they are the same. Also, the OT sources may well have had access to places where human dissection wasn't prohibited. The Egyptians, for example, were very familiar with the contents of the human body.
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