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Old 02-18-2013, 02:52 PM   #61
trooper6
 
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
But is it really bigotry since A.I.s and bioroids really are radically different and artificial?
It depends on your point of view.
For my character Gianni, of course it isn't bigotry...because AIs and Bioroids aren't people--so you can't be bigoted against them. Just like you can't be bigoted against dogs or toasters. Of course, there were those who enslaved Africans last century who felt the same way. And that enslaving Aficans was really the most humane thing you could do because Africans couldn't really take care of themselves.

PSR folk would disagree with that just as some abolitionists disagreed. For PSR folks, that you would see a Sapient being as radically different and artificial and therefore a valid target for slavery would definitely be bigotry.

ETA: Hm. The next time I play THS, I think I want to go for someone very opposite of Gianni. I think I want to play a bioroid PSR-type next time around.

Last edited by trooper6; 02-18-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
If he really would react negatively even when against his better interests, I would be fine with calling it a quirk level intolerance/berserk.
I would end up with too many quirks. As of now, I already have to pick among:
  • Anti-abolitionist - covers the many troubles he can encounter due to his views.
  • Broad-minded - because he really is. He likes weird stuff, and doesn't discriminate by race/sex/etc. either.
  • Conspicuous in Handing Out Money - he keeps his minion at his own Status, and he will be quite willing to spend more money than expected on his teammates (most likely he'll be the reachest PC).
  • Duncanite At Heart - while he's mostly a Terran, he actually strongly admires Duncanite ways, reacts positively to them unless has reason to do otherwise etc.
  • Protective Of His Property - while not reaching OCD level, he does overtly worry about stuff he owns, and this includes a trigger/tick sort of reaction if he ever sees someone hitting the table or breaking a dish in anger etc.
  • Actually switches to Kinsey Scale 3 if wearing an androgynous or female shell or avatar.
  • Does not add 'bedroom activities' to the list of minion's duties, even though the minion considers such an arrangement the default. (This is more complicated and ambiguous than it sounds, and ties in to Empathy.)
  • Proud. I mean, in the original concept he was Selfish, which was later removed, but and I still think his behaviour still qualifies for the quirk.
Besides, I don't want to push the GM towards adding such a story element deliberately. Either he does it, or he doesn't.

P.S.:
I actually find some modern social techniques to be unsettling, and I see a bit of hypocrisy in the way people are okay with charismatic social people or the likes of Paul Ekman, but are fearful of 'supernatural' telepathy.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:41 PM   #63
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
If I understand you correctly.

He thinks slavery of bioroids and AI is okay, as long as you treat your saves well physically.
Does he also think slavery of regular old humans is okay?
If they got into it legitimately and not through fraud/coercion, yes. (I'm undecided what his opinion is about human children.)

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If he thinks slavery is okay for every one...then you are still going to have to deal with people who think slavery is immoral.
To which he would reply, 'Would you prefer them to be dead instead? After all, the alternative was execution, hunger or something else the person considered a less desirable alternative.'

But yes, I know this opinion will cause many, many conflicts. (But it's not like he yells it like a slogan on every corner. I'm trying to present it as a non-simple aspect of the character.)
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:46 PM   #64
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I would end up with too many quirks. ...(snip)
Besides, I don't want to push the GM towards adding such a story element deliberately. Either he does it, or he doesn't.

P.S.:
I actually find some modern social techniques to be unsettling, and I see a bit of hypocrisy in the way people are okay with charismatic social people or the likes of Paul Ekman, but are fearful of 'supernatural' telepathy.
I got you.

I think it's because natural manipulation is grandfathered in, and most people delude themselves into thinking that they aren't susceptible to such control. But magic doesn't have that assumption so is more viscerally frightening even if no more effective.

As nearly autistic, I am a little more aware of such odd rules, and delusions of normal human interaction.
Especially since one of my brothers is naturally charismatic to a weird level, and the other is a creepy mastermind at verbal manipulation.
I once saw him talk my mother into actually apologizing for not giving him her money before he "needed" to take her purse out of her locked car.
At least I didn't suffer the crazy girlfriends they attracted. :)
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:53 PM   #65
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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It depends on your point of view.
For my character Gianni, of course it isn't bigotry...because AIs and Bioroids aren't people--so you can't be bigoted against them. Just like you can't be bigoted against dogs or toasters. Of course, there were those who enslaved Africans last century who felt the same way. And that enslaving Aficans was really the most humane thing you could do because Africans couldn't really take care of themselves.
Yeah, What Is A Person seems like the main line over which arguments go on this here forum. Which is the reason I find it more interesting to move the line not of What Is A Person, but rather What Is Okay To Do With A Person (and under what circumstances).

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
PSR folk would disagree with that just as some abolitionists disagreed. For PSR folks, that you would see a Sapient being as radically different and artificial and therefore a valid target for slavery would definitely be bigotry.
Still don't getting the feeling that I don't understand how the word is used.

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Originally Posted by trooper6 View Post
ETA: Hm. The next time I play THS, I think I want to go for someone very opposite of Gianni. I think I want to play a bioroid PSR-type next time around.
My first concept* was rather pro-PSR. (Also a campaigner against EU's ban on non-clone bioshells, thus indirectly supporting AI rights in EU, where the party line seems to be that all rights are okay.) But I figured that I would find it interesting to pick a typically negative archetype and try to make it more ambiguous and complex; now that I'm almost ready to start, I'm somewhat nervous, and unsure just how well can I pull it off.

* == Same GM, different campaign. Didn't take off.
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:54 PM   #66
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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If they got into it legitimately and not through fraud/coercion, yes. (I'm undecided what his opinion is about human children.)

To which he would reply, 'Would you prefer them to be dead instead? After all, the alternative was execution, hunger or something else the person considered a less desirable alternative.'

But yes, I know this opinion will cause many, many conflicts. (But it's not like he yells it like a slogan on every corner. I'm trying to present it as a non-simple aspect of the character.)
While of course we don't agree with him, it is a defensible view. It's also a little more creature comfort promoting than some ideologies in the real world.

It reminds me of how circuses used to be the only way "freaks" could make a living. After everyone got offended at such exploit, many are now destitute and homeless.... but at least they aren't being exploited, right?
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:01 PM   #67
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I got you.

I think it's because natural manipulation is grandfathered in, and most people delude themselves into thinking that they aren't susceptible to such control. But magic doesn't have that assumption so is more viscerally frightening even if no more effective.

As nearly autistic, I am a little more aware of such odd rules, and delusions of normal human interaction.
Especially since one of my brothers is naturally charismatic to a weird level, and the other is a creepy mastermind at verbal manipulation.
I once saw him talk my mother into actually apologizing for not giving him her money before he "needed" to take her purse out of her locked car.
At least I didn't suffer the crazy girlfriends they attracted. :)
Speaking of which, the character has 3 levels of Charisma, 4 levels of Empath talent (works as Empathy, costs 5/level, but adds Diplomacy to the mix), modified social skills starting in the 15s, and some other social stuff. I actually wonder how he compares to whswhs' social monster NPC. (Notably, he doesn't have social Eidetic Memory.)

This is the other challenge I braved myself into. Playing a rather social character.

P.S.: What does 'creature comfort' mean?
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:15 AM   #68
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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I don't quite understand why you are including the players.

I think THS is veering towards being a crapsack horror world.

This doesn't necessarilly mean that I'm going to play a PC who thinks of things that way.
Somehow this slipped through the cracks.

Because I have very little idea who I'm going to play with. Yes, firewalling is a very important skill, but people aren't perfect, and I expect that at least subconsciously, some of the player's sentiment may slip into the behaviour of a character.

Oh, and I generally see THS as neither dystopian nor eutopian - there are wonderful things in it, and there are horrific ones. Just like in real life.

Hmm. Come to think of it, I guess Richard is more consciously aware of the horrific bits than I am. It even comes up as part of his justification for his views (basically, he'd pick his lifepath over that of a freeborn but Average* citizen of a 3rd/4th wave state).

* == In the GURPS sense.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:52 AM   #69
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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I think THS is veering towards being a crapsack horror world.
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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Oh, and I generally see THS as neither dystopian nor eutopian - there are wonderful things in it, and there are horrific ones. Just like in real life.
I didn't experience the three year campaign I played in under whswhs to be in any way horror related. THS doesn't seem any more or less crapsacky than the current world.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:36 AM   #70
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Default Re: Playing against the Trend: Non-Villainous Anti-PSR, Reactionary etc. Characters

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I didn't experience the three year campaign I played in under whswhs to be in any way horror related. THS doesn't seem any more or less crapsacky than the current world.
You were in one scenario that could be interpreted as horror: The Memetic Menace of Montréal. It had a lot of the classic elements, including the possibility that Gianni himself might be corrupted. But it was a departure from the main focus of the campaign, just as the long series of sessions that focused on the characters' personal lives (climaxing with Stacy guesting as the team building consultant) were a departure in a different direction.

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