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Old 07-02-2024, 07:53 AM   #71
Icelander
 
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Default Philosophy Specializations Covered in Modern Day B.A. Degree in Philosophy

What specialties of the Philosophy skill would an undergraduate degree in Philosophy earned at an American university in the last twenty years be likely to grant?

I agree that a Philosophy (Comparative) skill seems plausible, but surely, the students must graduate more competent in some Western varieties of philosophy than they are at Taoism or Confucianism.

Granted, also, that there are differences between universities, which is why I'm adding Philosophy (Scholastics) to the character, because the university is the Saint Louis University (in St. Louis, MO), and the character also writes an M.A. thesis under Professor Eleonore Stump, a famous analytical Thomist (and analytical theologist, but let us let theology rest until its proper time).

But aside from their particular interest and graduate level study, the character must need to study some common core of Western philosophic thought, and I'm wondering what specialties I should add to represent that.
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Old 07-02-2024, 08:14 AM   #72
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Default Re: Philosophy Specializations Covered in Modern Day B.A. Degree in Philosophy

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
But aside from their particular interest and graduate level study, the character must need to study some common core of Western philosophic thought, and I'm wondering what specialties I should add to represent that.
Well, [I'd] use Philosophy (Western), but I'm using a house rule that allows you to take know stuff skills at any level of focus you want - I'd rate it about -4 relative to specializing in a particular "school" at the level Basic seems to call for.

Conforming to the RAW, you probably just pick a favorite philosopher. I suppose you could make a case for one of the broader movements - Existentialism, Idealism, Nihilism, Pragmatism, Realism, Relativism. If you regard Feminism as a philosophy, and for the GURPS para-religious skill it [is] that's on a similar level. Popular ones maybe closer to the examples in Basic in breadth, which do seem to allow for multiple philosophers with similar positions, might include Logical Positivism, Structuralism or Stoicism. And of course Marxism is given as an example and still pretty popular.
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Old 07-02-2024, 09:00 AM   #73
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Philosophy

I've been told that there are three broad academic paths in American university philosophy departments: metaphysics/epistemology/philosophy of science, ethics, and history of philosophy. The third is where you would study Platonism, Aristotelianism, Scholasticism, rationalism, empiricism, and so on. The first and second are academic fields; they seem to relate to how Philosophy is used in GURPS somewhat as Psychology (Experimental) relates to Psychology (Applied).

Really, hardly anything you study in a philosophy department is going to have much relevance to anything you would want to do in a game. It's very much like Ludwig Wittgenstein's famous criticism of Norman Malcolm during WWII, when Malcolm said something about the "British national character":

what is the use of studying philosophy if all that it does for you is to enable you to talk with some plausibility about some abstruse questions of logic, etc, & if it does not improve your thinking about the important questions of everyday life ...
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Old 07-02-2024, 09:10 AM   #74
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Default Re: Philosophy Specializations Covered in Modern Day B.A. Degree in Philosophy

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Well, [I'd] use Philosophy (Western), but I'm using a house rule that allows you to take know stuff skills at any level of focus you want - I'd rate it about -4 relative to specializing in a particular "school" at the level Basic seems to call for.
That's pretty close to Philosophy (Comparative), which defaults to any individual one at -5. Combining Philosophy (Comparative) with maybe a couple of specialities regarded as fundamental to any study of Philosophy at an American university in the 21st century, ought to cover it.

I suppose that one could argue that a B.A. in Philosophy might, certainly at some universities, entail a point in History (Western Philosophy), as well as the formal study of their schools of thought.

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Conforming to the RAW, you probably just pick a favorite philosopher. I suppose you could make a case for one of the broader movements - Existentialism, Idealism, Nihilism, Pragmatism, Realism, Relativism. If you regard Feminism as a philosophy, and for the GURPS para-religious skill it [is] that's on a similar level. Popular ones maybe closer to the examples in Basic in breadth, which do seem to allow for multiple philosophers with similar positions, might include Logical Positivism, Structuralism or Stoicism. And of course Marxism is given as an example and still pretty popular.
Graduate students might get away with picking a favourite philosopher and spending the next five years studying a specific topic of theirs and relating it to something modern and trendy, but before they do, they are expected to understand the basics of some philosophies.

Feminism and Marxism might be philosophies, they might even be Philosophy (Specialties) in GURPS, but they are not part of the curriculum in the specifically Philosophy-focused part of a B.A. in Philosophy, taught at the Department of Philosophy. An undergraduate might easily take elective classes that would provide some education in these specialties, or even a Minor in Gender Studies, but in such a case, the classes would be taught at other departments and not be required for a B.A. in Philosophy.

Which of the following, if any, might rate a point in a Philosophy specialty over the two years that an undergraduate majoring in Philosophy ought to be studying exclusively classes at the Department of Philosophy?
  • Existentialism
  • Idealism
  • Nihilism
  • Pragmatism
  • Realism
  • Relativism
  • Logical Positivism
  • Structuralism
  • Stoicism

And are any important ones missing?
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Old 07-02-2024, 09:16 AM   #75
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Philosophy

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I've been told that there are three broad academic paths in American university philosophy departments: metaphysics/epistemology/philosophy of science, ethics, and history of philosophy. The third is where you would study Platonism, Aristotelianism, Scholasticism, rationalism, empiricism, and so on. The first and second are academic fields; they seem to relate to how Philosophy is used in GURPS somewhat as Psychology (Experimental) relates to Psychology (Applied).
I'm combining various aspects of the first and second into Philosophy (Comparative) and treating the third as History (Western Philosophy). I still suspect that in order to be considered a university educated philosopher around the turn of the 21st century in the United States, there are some fields of Philosophy you need to have at a higher level than provided by the -5 default from Philosophy (Comparative).

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Really, hardly anything you study in a philosophy department is going to have much relevance to anything you would want to do in a game.
In this case, track the education of a character who has another graduate degree, will add the basic Philosophy curriculum considered necessary for graduate studies and after that take an M.A. in Philosophy under Professor Eleonore Stubbs at Saint Louis University, adding to their Philosophy (Scholastics), perhaps with an Optional Specialty in Thomism.

Once I've determined the skill levels in every specialty, then occasionally roll against their skills at various specialties to improve Reaction Rolls having to do with qualifying for academic posts at the next stage in following the character over some years in their career, to determine where they are when the PCs encounter them.
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Old 07-02-2024, 09:18 AM   #76
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Default Re: Philosophy Specializations Covered in Modern Day B.A. Degree in Philosophy

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Which of the following, if any, might rate a point in a Philosophy specialty over the two years that an undergraduate majoring in Philosophy ought to be studying exclusively classes at the Department of Philosophy?
  • Existentialism
  • Idealism
  • Nihilism
  • Pragmatism
  • Realism
  • Relativism
  • Logical Positivism
  • Structuralism
  • Stoicism

And are any important ones missing?
I would say none of those. I took several courses in the philosophy department at the University of California San Diego. A major there required six quarters of history of philosophy, covering at least most of those schools, as well as additional courses in subjects such as metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. None of the areas you identify would have been accepted as an exclusive focus for study.

The one that comes closest is logical positivism. The broader category it falls into, analytic philosophy (also including linguistic analysis in the style of Wittgenstein and Austin, for example), is an approach that some philosophy departments rely on, or used to (in these post-modern days that sort of logical and conceptual emphasis may be considered excessively conservative). In fact I might say that Philosophy (Analytic) is as close as you can get to a good summation of what universities teach.
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Old 07-02-2024, 10:04 AM   #77
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Default Re: Philosophy Specializations Covered in Modern Day B.A. Degree in Philosophy

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
That's pretty close to Philosophy (Comparative), which defaults to any individual one at -5.
Well, a little narrower, and I would probably distinguish (albeit it's more sociological and stylistic than anything, imo), between analytic and continental, at least, as that largely governs which post-19c-ish figures one reads.

Quote:
Which of the following, if any, might rate a point in a Philosophy specialty over the two years that an undergraduate majoring in Philosophy ought to be studying exclusively classes at the Department of Philosophy?
  • Existentialism
  • Idealism
  • Nihilism
  • Pragmatism
  • Realism
  • Relativism
  • Logical Positivism
  • Structuralism
  • Stoicism

And are any important ones missing?
So, my first question would be: is this an analytic or a continental department or somewhere that blends the two (usually meaning a Catholic institution that also has some scholasticism)? There's also the way that it can be unclear whether Scholasticism is its own thing or a tradition within both continental and analytic.

Continental: Existentialism, Phenomenology, Structuralism and Post-Structuralism. Nietzsche and Kierkegaard both fit uneasily in the first, I suppose, as godfathers.
Analytic: depressingly little Pragmatism, despite American Pragmatism being a thing, History of Philosophy might involve picking up some History (Ancient Greek Ethics) stuff. Logical Positivism probably shows up as Philosophy (Analytic Metaphysics), History (20th Century Logical Positivism), and Mathematics (Pure).

At the kind of detail you are going for, I wouldn't treat Stoicism or Relativism as stand-alone fields of study. They'd tend to be studied under Normative Ethics and Meta-Ethics, respectively--though Stoicism itself sticks its fingers in Metaphysics and elsewhere, and you could deal with Relativism under Epistemology...

How to individuate traditions and fields and how coarse-grained-ly to do so is tough--I lean toward malloyd's "any level of focus" approach here. PhilPapers has a decent organizational scheme, and you could say that the top-level, e.g., Philosophy (Analytic Metaphysics & Epistemology), is required, but then further Specialization one step down on either the tradition end or the field of research end (So, Analytic Scholastic Metaphysics & Epistemology or Analytic Metaphysics & Epistemology, Action Theory, for instance). Most undergrads probably end up with Philosophy ([Tradition], Value Theory, Normative Ethics), and perhaps a dabbler to something like History (Western Philosophy), probably in Early Modern or Ancient, if you must have an era.
I suppose I may have wound up with points split between that and Philosophy (Analytic, Metaphysics & Epistemology, Action Theory).

That would mean that Philosophy as written in Basic assumes Philosophy ([Tradition], [Specialization of Tradition], Value Theory).

One prof I have who got his (analytic) PhD around that time mentioned that "Toward Fin de siècle Ethics: Some Trends" by Darwall, Gibbard, and Railton was his graduate education summed up into a paper, but that may be a UMich thing or due to his areas of interest.

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I would say none of those.
That seems accurate.

Quote:
analytic philosophy (also including linguistic analysis in the style of Wittgenstein and Austin, for example), is an approach that some philosophy departments rely on, or used to (in these post-modern days that sort of logical and conceptual emphasis may be considered excessively conservative). In fact I might say that Philosophy (Analytic) is as close as you can get to a good summation of what universities teach.
We're still at it! Less emphasis on trying to get necessary and sufficient conditions for things than before, but there's definite continuity in the emphasis on clear, precise accounts of concepts that fit together in logically coherent ways.
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Old 07-02-2024, 11:05 AM   #78
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Philosophy

If we get really specific, it's the Saint Louis University, 1997-2000.

Technically, the character is not getting a B.A. in Philosophy, they are a Jesuit candidate with a PhD in another field pursuing a thesis option M.A. in Philosophy as part of their First Studies, and their favourite professor and eventual thesis advisor is Professor Eleonore Stump.

Before being allowed to take an M.A. in Philosophy, the character would have to take all the courses that SLU regards as foundational to a B.A. in Philosophy or an equivalent degree that would allow graduate-level studies in Philosophy, so even if the character is not specifically adding the undergraduate degree, they'll be studying all the practical skills from it.

Currently, the skills I've got them ear-marked as taking or raising are:

History (Western Philosophy)
Philosophy (Analytic)
Philosophy (Comparative)
Philosophy (Scholastic; OS: Thomism)

as the Philosophy department curriculum; and then incidental to that, but very important to academia at this level in general:

Public Speaking
Writing

The character already has Administration, Research and Teaching at levels high enough so that none of their focus will go toward improving those.

I'm interested in more general answers than just SLU and just these years, with just this particular professor, as another character is taking Philosophy at LSU from 1995-2001, and might at some point after 2005 pursue a PhD in the field, at an as yet undetermined university.*

*Fairly randomly, she's most drawn to Analytical Thomism, so she might actually seek out study under Professor Eleonore Stump at SLU, despite the fact that I did not know about her existence when my GM decision's, in character for NPCs, and the dice, determined that a linked character would go to SLU and study Philosophy, specifically focusing on both Jesuit Scholastics and subjecting real-world Criminal Justice problems to ethical analysis, both with and without a Catholic focus, and that this other NPC would be fascinated with Analytical Thomism.
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Old 07-02-2024, 01:31 PM   #79
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Philosophy

Stump is pretty much the analytic Thomist, though I don't know when that became true. Her Gifford Lectures were in '03, so by then. She seems lovely--I'm working through Wandering in Darkness now, which wouldn't have been written yet, but the interest in narrative and suffering is longstanding in her career.

If you have the list of who taught at the institution at the time and go through their areas of specialization, that'll basically be what the students wind up learning.

PhDs will require a course on logic that covers topics in logic including Godel's Incompleteness stuff (which probably only actually justifies a Dabbler perk in Mathematics (Pure) if anything). An undergrad should probably have some logic--I got up through 1st-order quantified predicate symbolic logic, then got possible-worlds semantics whenever the metaphysics/epistemology guy had an excuse (I'd just call that part of having the Philosophy skill covering topics it's used in). Kripke's Naming and Necessity was 1980, so that's gotten metaphysics stuff back on the map.

To have a shot at teaching Philosophy would mean knowing ethics--at least Kant (including Kantian constructivism, I'd imagine), Utilitarianism, and Virtue Ethics. That's usually pretty core to Intro, and that's where departments make their money, so we all learn to teach it. At a Catholic school, I'd guess one would pick up Natural Law approaches too.

Notre Dame is huge for Catholic Philosophy (and Christian Phil generally). All my undergrad advisors went there--my ethics prof appears to have had David Solomon as his chair--though all graduated before '05. Plantinga and others are on the scene with Reformed Epistemology, which had a lot of influence in Christian philosophy broadly, and Al ended up teaching at ND. That focus might not be what these characters are after, though.

Doing a search on PhilPapers for stuff published on Thomism between '95-'05 suggests John Haldane (which takes them out of the country) and Ralph McInerny... the latter of whom apparently wrote mysteries... I feel like you could do something with that?

You're around the time Leiter started ranking philosophy departments (The Philosophical Gourmet Report), and those rankings are likely part of how a non-continental student would likely go about figuring out where to apply, though there have always been kerfuffle's in the field regarding its methodology and stuff. The acceptance rates at higher places is like 3%, though.
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Old 07-02-2024, 06:49 PM   #80
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Default Re: [Basic] Skill of the week: Philosophy

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To have a shot at teaching Philosophy would mean knowing ethics--at least Kant (including Kantian constructivism, I'd imagine), Utilitarianism, and Virtue Ethics. That's usually pretty core to Intro, and that's where departments make their money, so we all learn to teach it. At a Catholic school, I'd guess one would pick up Natural Law approaches too.
Comparing and contrasting the different types of ethical systems is Philosophy (Meta-Ethics), right?

So that's pretty much what Joseph Cachere will be doing, in addition to his Neo-Scholastic, analytical Thomism, Catholic approach to ethics as taught in the Catholic church. Sort of like, "Catholic Scholastic thought, exemplified by Sir Thomas Aquinas in his X, teaches that Y, whereas Kantian virtue ethics... Utilitarianism... etc." Leaving the students to define their own principles, articulate why, and from that, reason out their own ethical solutions to real-world problems.

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Notre Dame is huge for Catholic Philosophy (and Christian Phil generally). All my undergrad advisors went there--my ethics prof appears to have had David Solomon as his chair--though all graduated before '05. Plantinga and others are on the scene with Reformed Epistemology, which had a lot of influence in Christian philosophy broadly, and Al ended up teaching at ND. That focus might not be what these characters are after, though.

Doing a search on PhilPapers for stuff published on Thomism between '95-'05 suggests John Haldane (which takes them out of the country) and Ralph McInerny... the latter of whom apparently wrote mysteries... I feel like you could do something with that?
Under normal circumstances, Isabel Andrada wouldn't consider a Catholic university. I mean, she's Catholic, but not considering any kind of career as a nun. And there's not much else a Catholic woman can do within the Church.

However, one of these random things, when she was a teeny-tiny Catholic schoolgirl in grade 11, at a faculty dinner at Loyola University New Orleans where she was serving, Joseph Cachere, Fr. Francis Coughlin, S.J. and several of the theology and philosophy faculty debated the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas and its applicability to the modern day or everyday problems, and she was transfixed.

Later on, as she picks her Major at LSU, she started studying Philosophy from a more secular, typical point of view, but given that she still saw her 'Uncle' Joseph at least twice a month, she'd always talk all her study material through with him. Well, I imagine that required quite a few phone calls too, but Joseph never had kids, dearly wanted them, and is lonely after the death of his wife, so he definitely did not mind regular phone calls from a surrogate daughter.

And if she wants to continue the study of analytical Thomism beyond what LSU offers, sure, she could go to any number of Catholic universities, but, a) Professor Eleonore Stump is the acknowledged expert, and b) She has like three academics who know Professor Stump personally who'll be glad to write glowing letters of recommendation, while her contacts elsewhere are, well, not quite as good.

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Originally Posted by Gumby Bush View Post
You're around the time Leiter started ranking philosophy departments (The Philosophical Gourmet Report), and those rankings are likely part of how a non-continental student would likely go about figuring out where to apply, though there have always been kerfuffle's in the field regarding its methodology and stuff. The acceptance rates at higher places is like 3%, though.
5% to 15% in 1995-1996, according to Leiter, though, so there's a positive there.
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