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View Poll Results: So what about that Ninja, hey? | |||
Leave it as is in Ogre Minis. | 53 | 36.05% | |
Add a hairy "stealth" rule and increase the point value. | 37 | 25.17% | |
I'm going to playtest some before I answer. | 35 | 23.81% | |
I am a pirate. I do not play with Ninjas. | 22 | 14.97% | |
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-03-2008, 09:22 PM | #1 |
President and EIC
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
(Warning - I am still not nearly caught up with forum reading. This was prompted by about the tenth time somebody sent me a pointer to the TMP thread on the Ninja. Yep, I *know* about it now :-) I have no comment except to say that I do recognize some unique terrain pieces in those photos. Of course, the Conspiracy could very well be controlling the mind of whatsisname's cousin's best friend, and perhaps we LET him take those pictures.
But here's what that raised in my mind. We did publish Ninja stats in the original Ogre Minis. The only special rule was that all attacks on the Ninja were at -1. I had the idea at the time that a few more special abilities might be appropriate, including some kind of "you don't see me at all" rule, and that later the price would be increased for those special rules. I'm willing now to listen to the argument that (a) simplicity is good, and (b) jacking the price of a Ninja up to well PAST that of a Mark IV or V would be bad for overall balance. Hmm. Some of you don't have full stats. One MB, two 2B, 8 AP. One missile rack with four internal missiles. Two external missiles. Poll attached, but written feedback will also be appreciated. |
04-04-2008, 12:47 AM | #2 |
On Notice
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
Given how the CRT works in the game (1-6), a -1 die roll mod to the CRT is a HUGE combat advantage.
Ogres ignore 'D' results. 1:1 attacks vs a Ninja component only succeed on a die roll of 6. This makes it VERY HARD to slow Ninja's down!!!!!! And Ninja's are IMMUNE to any attack that is LESS than 1:1!!! I think the rule in OM simulates the Ninja stealth systems just fine, and requires no further tweaking. Leave the rest of the 'cloaked Ogre' stuff for folks playing GURPS Ogre (if only there were some...)
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If you think an Apache can't tell right from wrong....wrong him, and see what happens. Last edited by Apache; 04-04-2008 at 03:39 AM. |
04-04-2008, 01:22 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
Haven't played with a Ninja yet but... as a counter to Apache's well made observation of the Ninja's nigh-invulnerability, would it be possible to play a modified golden BB rule (The Ogre Book, 2nd Ed., p.101 & here ) to allow the stealth feature to be disabled? Same idea as a critical hit but instead of destroying the Ninja outright, the -1 to attack rolls is removed. You could probably also use this against regular Ogres to give a +1 to future rolls. Just a thought...
Last edited by Mark Hansen; 04-04-2008 at 01:26 AM. Reason: Additional info |
04-04-2008, 03:00 AM | #4 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
As seen here
http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/resources/record/ninja.html it has fewer treads than a Mk-III so it's biggest turn off is ramming. If you can catch it. (Added) Also it's the worst Ogre in Ogre Minis against cruise missiles. Given the current Ogre Minis rules with Ogre smashing cruise missiles this is not a nice thing. Suggested changes: Keep the point value the same as a Mark V and give the Ninja these additional perks. As a self-aware Ogre it can split-fire. And as a self-aware Ogre it is +1 on any roll to shoot down cruise missiles. Lastly, Ogre AP guns need to have a 12+ base roll to shoot down cruise missiles. (This helps the other Ogres, but really saves the Ninja.)
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-HJC Last edited by hcobb; 04-04-2008 at 03:22 AM. Reason: cruise controlled |
04-04-2008, 05:21 AM | #5 | |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Dayton, Ohio
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
Quote:
Taken alone, I don't think that's a particularly noteworthy advantage. Nobody in their right mind wastes their time making 1:2 attacks on an Ogre anyway, unless they're down to practically nothing and have no choice. The most noteworthy advantage of the -1 ECM is that it makes the tread units (of which there ought to be 48, not some damned heretical, godless commie number like 40) much more difficult to take out. Yes, it makes everything else more difficult to hit too; but attacks on treads are always 1:1, so the advantage is most noticeable there. But is that really worth 50-60 points? Because without that -1 ECM effect, the Ninja would probably be worth less than a Mark III. That's why I voted "I'll playtest it a bit." I don't believe that -1 is really worth so much; and I suspect it'll need a lower point value or some additional bonus from the ECM. And a proper, god-fearing number of tread units wouldn't hurt, either. ;) |
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04-04-2008, 10:10 AM | #6 |
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
I like the sound of HCobb's suggestions (but with the proviso of extra playtesting), though if those don't make it I'd go for leave the Ninja as in OM option.
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04-04-2008, 11:01 AM | #7 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The North American Combine
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
Quote:
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"There is no such thing as a dangerous weapon, only dangerous men." "Death is certain, life is not." "No one assails me without punishment" |
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04-04-2008, 01:35 PM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
Quote:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ogre/ Judging from the rules there, AP guns might have doubled range against cruise missiles, but I've only playtested normal range and it seemed to help balance a lot of the cute crater tricks, at least under the Shockwave rules.
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-HJC |
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04-05-2008, 03:54 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: May 2007
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
How about a nice "hairy" stealth rule? Something like:
Quote:
Now, the Ninja is supposed to have really extensive ECM/jamming/defensive weapons systems (OM p. 11). These should be able to fool everything except the Mk1 Eyeball, including the information sharing between vehicles to coordinate attacks and the navigation systems of cruise missiles. Keeping the -1 die roll modifier against weaker attacks also represents this, as the electronics and extra point defense systems drop warheads from incoming short ranged or weaker (presuming a smaller number of incoming rounds here) attacks. The Ninja can still be attacked successfully, but it requires longer ranged weapons and coordination of their firepower to do it any harm. This will require some playtesting. I think 150 points for the Ninja with this rule set should stay that way initially. Before raising the cost, I would also consider reducing the size of the AoE down to 4" (8" diameter) first. While significantly "hairier" than the original rule, it is still sufficiently simple. Mark |
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04-05-2008, 02:30 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the State of Jefferson
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Ninja
Quote:
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"God may not play dice with the universe, but I have to." OGRE Geek Code: S+ 01+ 02++ G+++ S+++ RP+++ OM+++ B+++ GO() O3D+++ PO +++ HR/NU++ MK1+ MK2+ MK3+ MK4+ MK5+ MK6+ F+ D+ CM+ W+ |
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