Wait maneuver issues

[Erling]

A is a guard. B, C, D and E are his enemies. A is standing behind a corner, ready to shoot on sight. B, C, D and E are going to rush around the corner and kill A.

Case #1:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Do nothing.
C: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: All-out Defense, go around the corner.

When A attacks B (Wait triggered), latter uses Dodge and Drop. C, D and E step around the corner and shoot A. Action continues:

C: Attack (shoot A).
D: Attack (shoot A).
E: Attack (shoot A).

Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?

Case #2:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
C: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?

[Nereidalbel]

Wait is just deferring your action until later in the turn sequence. If A has the higher Move or whatever else you use to determine initiative, he still goes first when the next turn starts.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Wait is just deferring your action until later in the turn sequence. If A has the higher Move or whatever else you use to determine initiative, he still goes first when the next turn starts.

I think the whole point is that the Waits are all triggered on B's turn, after A's turn has passed. Then C, D and E get their turns after B's turn, even though they already acted on B's turn thanks to Wait. My group has run into these kinds of problems many times in play, and I've never come up with a satisfying solution. The problem can get even worse with mounted combatants who can times their Waits according to their own mount's movements and take advantage of this rules quirk repeatedly.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I think the whole point is that the Waits are all triggered on B's turn, after A's turn has passed. Then C, D and E get their turns after B's turn, even though they already acted on B's turn thanks to Wait. My group has run into these kinds of problems many times in play, and I've never come up with a satisfying solution. The problem can get even worse with mounted combatants who can times their Waits according to their own mount's movements and take advantage of this rules quirk repeatedly.

Nope, they used Wait on Turn 1 so they could act out of order on Turn 2. Turn 3 is still A, then B, then C, then D, then E. No getting a free use of ATR out of Wait ;)

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Nope, they used Wait on Turn 1 so they could act out of order on Turn 2. Turn 3 is still A, then B, then C, then D, then E. No getting a free use of ATR out of Wait ;)

GURPS doesn't have a general concept of "turn" outside of any particular character's turn. In your language, the action they're taking on what you're calling "turn 2" is their "turn 1" action, and they still get a "turn 2" action as well. In other words, you always go when your Basic Speed comes up in the turn order, regardless of whether you've already acted during someone else's turn at some higher Basic Speed.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Gnome

GURPS doesn't have a general concept of "turn" outside of any particular character's turn. In your language, the action they're taking on what you're calling "turn 2" is their "turn 1" action, and they still get a "turn 2" action as well. In other words, you always go when your Basic Speed comes up in the turn order, regardless of whether you've already acted during someone else's turn at some higher Basic Speed.

If your Wait is not triggered, it is the same thing as Do Nothing. So, Turn 1 is effectively Do Nothing for B, C, and D. They have chosen Do Nothing as their action, and that is that.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Erling

A is a guard. B, C, D and E are his enemies. A is standing behind a corner, ready to shoot on sight. B, C, D and E are going to rush around the corner and kill A.

Case #1:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Do nothing.
C: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: Wait (when B will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: All-out Defense, go around the corner.

When A attacks B (Wait triggered), latter uses Dodge and Drop. C, D and E step around the corner and shoot A. Action continues:

C: Attack (shoot A).
D: Attack (shoot A).
E: Attack (shoot A).

Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?

Correct. All the attacks were triggered by B. After all those attacks are resolved, C, then D, then E choose new manuevers for their new turns.

Originally Posted by Erling

Case #2:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
C: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?

No, it isn't possible. The attacks are triggered by E; that is when A, B, C, and D's waits are triggered. Affer those attacks are resolved, A chooses a new maneuver as it's now his turn again.

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Incorrect.

I hope you meant "No, it isn't possible". Anyway, that's what I was curious about: manifestation of this rules quirk depends on turn order.

Originally Posted by Gnome

My group has run into these kinds of problems many times in play, and I've never come up with a satisfying solution.

Currently I tend to consider it a rule abuse. If B, C, D and E were NPCs, as a GM I would make С, D and E take attacking maneuvers, not Wait. B still can take All-out Defense, of course.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Nope, they used Wait on Turn 1 so they could act out of order on Turn 2. Turn 3 is still A, then B, then C, then D, then E. No getting a free use of ATR out of Wait ;)

You see, if actual order of action is "AB BA BA" you can still claim that eventually everything will be OK and both sides will take actions one by one, but "AB BA" fraction can be a huge advantage for B.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Erling

Effectively C, D and E attack twice in a row: for Wait being triggered and then as a regular maneuver. Right?

Right. A "wasted" his first turn waiting for something that didn't happen.
Edit: Erase the first A and B entries and look at the sequence again starting with C. Does it still look like a problem to you? Probably not, because you now perceive C as "going first" and the sequence follows your conditioning about stuff resetting for a "new turn".

Case #2:

A: Wait (overwatch the corner, shoot as soon as someone will present himself).
B: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
C: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
D: Wait (when E will Dodge and Drop, Step around the corner and shoot anyone standing in sight).
E: wishes to abuse the rules and make B, C and D attack twice in a row as in case #1. Is it possible?

Only if A cooperates. He could take Wait (After A clucks like a chicken, Dodge and Drop an imaginary attack) and that would happen if A obliges by clucking on his next turn.

[Erling]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Erase the first A and B entries and look at the sequence again starting with C. Does it still look like a problem to you? Probably not, because you now perceive C as "going first" and the sequence follows your conditioning about stuff resetting for a "new turn".

It still does. When your character is shot six times rather than thrice you won't say "oh, it's all right, since C, D and E can be considered as "going first" after my character has been shot thrice". "AB AB" isn't equal to "AB BA", as Gnome pointed out.

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

Just gonna point out Move and Attack isn't valid in Wait. At least not in Basic RAW.

And if everyone is in a position to step around corner, depending on the target, I'd probably force them to roll visual perception unless they have ETS.

Otherwise yeah.

They don't need Move and Attack (not to mention Teamwork perk which allows it, but let's put it aside right now). C, D and E can make their Steps consequently, starting with character which is furthermost from the corner.

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Okay. I'll try to break this apart as I understand the rules.

You noted that A re-set his wait maneuver on the new round. C, D, and E all would have to as well I think. And since B goes before them, if he steps around the corner on the second round, C, D, and E all would have to just choose to move around the corner and shoot on their turns. They would have no wait-action that would be triggered because that was last round. The third round would start at A again if he's still capable. No one would get double turns. And I think that's normal for the rules.

I'm sorry, but that has nothing to do with RAW.

Originally Posted by Gnome

One simple house fix (sort of borrowed from DnD3.x I guess) might be to move a combatant's place in the turn order permanently to wherever his or her Wait is triggered. So for example if I have BS 7 but I interrupt someone with BS 5.75, my effective BS for the purposes of turn order becomes 5.74 for the remainder of the combat (or until I Wait again).

I'm glad you've got my point, but this house rule is difficult to incorporate into GURPS combat system because of defense refresh and things like time-fuse grenades. But it's possibly doable, especially if you use expressions like "grenade will explode on Basic Speed count 4.50".

Originally Posted by malloyd

You can of course take Wait for the same thing again, but you still only get one action if and when it ever does trigger, not one per turn you spent waiting, which is how many actions you *could* have taken in that time if you hadn't waited.

Yes, you won't get more actions than you would have without Wait. But Wait can be used in a way that allows you to effectively take two consequential actions (effectively two maneuvers, since Wait transforms into another maneuver), which can be a great advantage for you.