Using The Magic Items Volumes With 4e

[scc]

So I'm looking at using the various Magic Items volumes with 4e, the most obvious is for extra magic items for DF games but you never know what you'll come up with, so I want to know what problems I might encounter and how to patch over them. Some I've already spotted are:

Armor, do DR values need changing or do they work as listed? And what about PD, that doesn't exist anymore. Chainmail Bikini is a little more complicated, what should the stats for the true bikini be?

Should Enchanter’s Staff's exist? And how much should they cost?

Klein Beer, a bottomless bottle of beer should not cost $10, at the very least it must cost more to make, so long as you don't drink too much the problems with this go away, so how much?

What should Athame be in 4e games? Magery with limitations that work a to 2pts a level or can I simply pick up any knife and purify it?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by scc

Armor, do DR values need changing or do they work as listed? And what about PD, that doesn't exist anymore. Chainmail Bikini is a little more complicated, what should the stats for the true bikini be?

Should Enchanter’s Staff's exist? And how much should they cost?

Klein Beer, a bottomless bottle of beer should not cost $10, at the very least it must cost more to make, so long as you don't drink too much the problems with this go away, so how much?

What should Athame be in 4e games? Magery with limitations that work a to 2pts a level or can I simply pick up any knife and purify it?

Armor needs no changing except to do away with PD as an intirinsic stat. Magically-added PD could be turned into 4e DB but that's not as necessary as it was in 3e. The True Bikini is still a bikini that protects like chain mail using an unknown Enchantment. Cost is up to the GM.

Should the Enchanter's Staff still exist is a GM question and the same for the cost. There's no existing mechnism (in 3e or 4e) for figuring a cost.

Klein Beer operates under a Roger Rabbit-like principle that it only works when it's funny. Persons trying to monetize it are likely to be frustrated.

Athame is a "standard" item in 4e's Path/Book magic system.See the "Mystic Symbol" textbox on Thaumatology p.124.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Klein Beer operates under a Roger Rabbit-like principle that it only works when it's funny. Persons trying to monetize it are likely to be frustrated.

So you don't think there are people who would't like to own a bottomless bottle of beer?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Athame is a "standard" item in 4e's Path/Book magic system.See the "Mystic Symbol" textbox on Thaumatology p.124.

The write up is a bit weird, first it says it provides a bonus to skill, then it says it an Advantage brought with the Gadget Limitation, so which is it? And do you pay with points or cash?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by scc

So you don't think there are people who would't like to own a bottomless bottle of beer?

The Klein Beer Bottle is specific to the Illuminati University setting. It literally only works when it's funny. That's almost a law of nature in that universe.

The write up is a bit weird, first it says it provides a bonus to skill, then it says it an Advantage brought with the Gadget Limitation, so which is it? And do you pay with points or cash?

It's both. It's Magery bought with Gadget limitations. And you pay for it with points

[scc]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

The Klein Beer Bottle is specific to the Illuminati University setting. It literally only works when it's funny. That's almost a law of nature in that universe.

I'm having trouble picturing a situation where drinking beer and someone winding up in an unusual place isn't funny, the drinking of beer doesn't exactly happen in times and places where that wouldn't be funny. Also I'm pretty sure that a limitation on the BEER, not the BOTTLE.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Should the Enchanter's Staff still exist is a GM question and the same for the cost. There's no existing mechnism (in 3e or 4e) for figuring a cost.

Considering the time needed for most enchantments things like Enchanter's Staff comes off more as window dressing - something, barring some really fortune circumstances the player would never get to use.

In fact that is my view regarding huge hunks of the Magic Items series.

Many of these items cost so much in terms of energy and spells (Burbane’s Staff with its Beast Speech, Total Paralysis, Sense Foes, Flesh to Stone, Walk on Air, Explosive Fireball, Ice Slick, Create Food, Major Healing, Dispel Illusion, Analyze Magic, Invisibility, Disintegrate, Conceal Magic (-10 to analyze), Suggestion, Apportation, Sense Spirit, Plant Form, Missile Shield, Great Voice, 5 points of Power, and 5 of Speed) that the item even existing without having many quirks via "normal" enchantment becomes rarer the more spells it has.

For example the Burbane’s Staff above has 22 spells. At 15 (95.4%) that is 35.5% (.954^22) that every enchantment succeeds without any quirking. Worse yet the chance a critical failure does not happen (which destroys the item) is 65.6% (.981^22)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by scc

I'm having trouble picturing a situation where drinking beer and someone winding up in an unusual place isn't funny, the drinking of beer doesn't exactly happen in times and places where that wouldn't be funny. Also I'm pretty sure that a limitation on the BEER, not the BOTTLE.

So, you can buy 4-dimensional bottles from your version of Amazon?

That's what a "Klein bottle" is, the paradoxical 3-dimenional projection of a 4 dimensional shape. It's analogous to a Mobius strip which is an insoluable paradox if you only exist in 2 dimensions but only a twisted strip of paper in 3D.

So it's entirely likely that you can't even take the Klein Bottle of Beer off-campus. Maybe it just goes "poof!" once you take it outside the campus Reality Stabilizers or maybe dragging on the 3 dimensional end of the bottle won't let you get the whole 4 dimensional bottle through IOU's 4 dimensional gates.

So you're looking for a wealthy (but second semester) freshthing who is for some reason worried about nailing down a 3 and a half-year supply of beer but who doesn't want to drink enough beer to get drunk. Maybe a couple of thousand it anything.

You may say that you could keep a whole fraternity supplied with beer but what fraternity wants to drink beer but avoid getting drunk?

[scc]

Originally Posted by maximara

Considering the time needed for most enchantments things like Enchanter's Staff comes off more as window dressing - something, barring some really fortune circumstances the player would never get to use.

In fact that is my view regarding huge hunks of the Magic Items series.

This only holds true if you keep using S&S, yet the Enchanters Staff makes Q&D a lot more usable.

Originally Posted by maximara

Many of these items cost so much in terms of energy and spells (Burbane’s Staff with its Beast Speech, Total Paralysis, Sense Foes, Flesh to Stone, Walk on Air, Explosive Fireball, Ice Slick, Create Food, Major Healing, Dispel Illusion, Analyze Magic, Invisibility, Disintegrate, Conceal Magic (-10 to analyze), Suggestion, Apportation, Sense Spirit, Plant Form, Missile Shield, Great Voice, 5 points of Power, and 5 of Speed) that the item even existing without having many quirks via "normal" enchantment becomes rarer the more spells it has.

For example the Burbane’s Staff above has 22 spells. At 15 (95.4%) that is 35.5% (.954^22) that every enchantment succeeds without any quirking. Worse yet the chance a critical failure does not happen (which destroys the item) is 65.6% (.981^22)

I believe that S&S allows you to not roll for success, so no chance of quirking. Of course there is the question of way a Mage needs a Staff that allows him to cast a whole bunch of spells, but probably best not to look into that.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

So, you can buy 4-dimensional bottles from your version of Amazon?

That's what a "Klein bottle" is, the paradoxical 3-dimenional projection of a 4 dimensional shape. It's analogous to a Mobius strip which is an insoluable paradox if you only exist in 2 dimensions but only a twisted strip of paper in 3D.

So it's entirely likely that you can't even take the Klein Bottle of Beer off-campus. Maybe it just goes "poof!" once you take it outside the campus Reality Stabilizers or maybe dragging on the 3 dimensional end of the bottle won't let you get the whole 4 dimensional bottle through IOU's 4 dimensional gates.

So you're looking for a wealthy (but second semester) freshthing who is for some reason worried about nailing down a 3 and a half-year supply of beer but who doesn't want to drink enough beer to get drunk. Maybe a couple of thousand it anything.

You may say that you could keep a whole fraternity supplied with beer but what fraternity wants to drink beer but avoid getting drunk?

IOU is only a suggested setting, I can quite easily have DF adventurers find one, and later get into trouble from whoever ultimately brought it, and the suggested price is $10.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by scc

I can quite easily have DF adventurers find one, and later get into trouble from whoever ultimately brought it, and the suggested price is $10.

....and after said adventurers drink enough Klein Beer to wake up with a hangover in some really inconvenient and/or difficult spot they'll want to trade the funny-shaped bottle to someone else for $10 of regular beer.

A Wizard with Curious and Overconfident might give them more because he was sure he could figure out how to do soemthing useful with the principle. This probably wouldn't work because in a DF setting Klein Beer would be created by some Trickster God or something similar.

If what you really want is "What's the "fair" price for a bottomless bottle of beer?" I think I've heard Kromm suggesting making something like that with Cornucopia. That could be quite affordable.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by scc

So I'm looking at using the various Magic Items volumes with 4e, the most obvious is for extra magic items for DF games but you never know what you'll come up with, so I want to know what problems I might encounter and how to patch over them. Some I've already spotted are:

Armor, do DR values need changing or do they work as listed? And what about PD, that doesn't exist anymore. Chainmail Bikini is a little more complicated, what should the stats for the true bikini be?

Should Enchanter’s Staff's exist? And how much should they cost?

Klein Beer, a bottomless bottle of beer should not cost $10, at the very least it must cost more to make, so long as you don't drink too much the problems with this go away, so how much?

What should Athame be in 4e games? Magery with limitations that work a to 2pts a level or can I simply pick up any knife and purify it?

Since you are talking about three different books it would be convenient to mention which book items you bring up are actually from. As for armor, pseudo-medieval armour hasn't changed much between games apart from dropping PD and compensating for that by cooking an increase in the ability to dodge and parry into the game mechanics of the new edition. But if it lists "Deflect" among the component spells, well that's an enchantment that still exists in fourth edition. Thus if you are wearing Evasive Armour from Magic Items 1 you'd get a +3 defensive bonus.

Chainmail Bikini is a joke enchantment that takes a real set of armour and makes most of it invisible while disguising the remainder with an illusion. Thus it's stats are those of the real armour, possibly enhanced with other enchantments.

Whether Enchanter's Staff should exist and how much it would cost are world-building decisions. It's obvious from the write-up that it shouldn't be in player-character hands except to serve a specific plot need.