[Basic] [MA] Slithers, posture, Cannot Kick, and fairness of 0-point features

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

Officially, No Legs (Slithers) is a 0-point feature. It trades inability to kick (which is normally [-5]) for the impossibility of having one's locomotive parts crippled ("you cannot
kick, cannot be struck in the legs" and "point costs below assume that the
benefit [...] balances the drawback"). However, I don't see how that's a fair balance and here's why:

Normally, the reason one wants to not have a leg hit location is so that enemies can't cripple your legs and thus you don't fall down and don't suffer the move, attack and defense penalties.

However, the feature totally does not protect from those consequences, and in fact makes you suffer two of them [b]all the time[/i]:

Originally Posted by MA116

If you’re Legless, you must fight from the ground at
the usual penalties (-4 to attack, -3 to defend) and can’t
do anything that requires legs, such as Knee Strike or
any kick or leg-based grapple.
[ . . .]
Slithers: As Legless, unless [exceptions for snake-grappling sidestepping NFM]

So effectively, taking Slithers gives you the same attack/defense penalty as taking Lame (Legless), but for 0 points instead of -30 of Lame (Legless).

----

In light of all this, I have a few questions:

1. Why are the drawbacks of Slithers priced so? What huge hidden benefits am I missing?
2. Is the penalty meant to apply to other 0-point terrestrial legless features, such as bouncers, rollers/wheelbots and the like, or is Slithers different from them all?
3. If I want to build a species which can travel by land, cannot kick, doesn't have legs that can be crippled, and doesn't suffer the aforementioned big penalties for legless to all combat skills, what traits do I need?

Thanks in advance!
(This thread has been brought to you by an amphibious alien cephalopod.)

[Maz]

Im guessing that the person writing the Slither trait didnt take into account the combat penalty of being legless. And in fact you do not have any penalties to combat from it. Thats how I would rule it.

[Tomsdad]

Yep what Maz said.


Basically I'd adjudicate this according to what is normal for your species / anatomy / GURPS template. etc

A snake it not going to suffer the prone attacks and defence penalties that a human would when they're lying prone on the ground because being prone on the ground is the default for what snakes do. Basically I read those exceptions for double jointed and constriction attacks are basically good indicators here for how well a legless/limbless organism copes.


There's a follow on article nominally for Technical Grappling in a Pyramid (3/61 "way of the warrior"), that looks at the posture penalty table from the POV* of horizontal creatures but I see no reason why it can't be generally applied beyond TG.

You want to get back some points and reflect a realistic disadvantage of no legs when your a slitherer, judging by the snake write ups in Campaigns I'd say buy down Move. The python is -5cp and the Rattlesnake is -10cp here if my maths is right.


*and even that's going to take some common sense assessment for stuff like snakes

[AlexanderHowl]

No Legs is different than Legless in GURPS. There are no penalties associated with No Legs (Slithering) while there are plenty of penalties associated with Legless. In the former case, you have natural balancing and motive capabilities. In the latter case, you lack both. You do gain a penalty for grappling unless you have Constriction Attack and Double-Jointed though.

[Kromm]

If you're a fantastic creature who slithers to move while still being able to rear up and function as a humanoid with limbs above the "waist," just ignore most of that. You won't have penalties to do anything much. However, you won't be able to use legs to kick, grapple, or parry . . . which trades off against not being susceptible to losing mobility or being forced into a lower posture by having legs injured.

Martial Arts assumes Horizontal + No Legs (Slithers), but yes, we weren't very clear about that.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

No Legs is different than Legless in GURPS. There are no penalties associated with No Legs (Slithering) while there are plenty of penalties associated with Legless. In the former case, you have natural balancing and motive capabilities. In the latter case, you lack both. You do gain a penalty for grappling unless you have Constriction Attack and Double-Jointed though.

No Legs is different than Legless, but do note that No Legs (Slithers) says to use the modifiers of Legless. (This reply is based on the RAW alone; Kromm's reply makes things look different.)

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you're a fantastic creature who slithers to move while still being able to rear up and function as a humanoid with limbs above the "waist," just ignore most of that. You won't have penalties to do anything much. However, you won't be able to use legs to kick, grapple, or parry . . . which trades off against not being susceptible to losing mobility or being forced into a lower posture by having legs injured.

Martial Arts assumes Horizontal + No Legs (Slithers), but yes, we weren't very clear about that.

Umm, now I'm confused.
Is Horizontal + Slithers so much worse than Horizontal on its own? Or did MA intend to make Horizontal to give a -4/-3 modifier in combat at all times? (The way Horizontal is described and used throughout the different texts, there seems to be some ambiguity as to what it is and what it isn't. It might be useful to clear that up with the possible trait combinations, but there are many possible combinations and I'm not sure which ones do and don't make a difference.)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

...
Umm, now I'm confused.
Is Horizontal + Slithers so much worse than Horizontal on its own? Or did MA intend to make Horizontal to give a -4/-3 modifier in combat at all times? (The way Horizontal is described and used throughout the different texts, there seems to be some ambiguity as to what it is and what it isn't. It might be useful to clear that up with the possible trait combinations, but there are many possible combinations and I'm not sure which ones do and don't make a difference.)

Honestly I think the bit in bold makes the point you have to take a judgement on these things since as you say its unlikely we'll ever get an exhaustive listing of how all possible combinations of traits will work. Especially as traits themselves are also often broad brush descriptions of several possible things in all possible game settings.

So if you have a Snake who slithers along the ground, do you think it should suffer -4/-3 penalties to attack and defend when it's on lying on the ground?


As I pointed out Pyramid 3/61 goes into how to adjust posture penalty table* for horizontal things.


*which appears to be written from the perspective of upright humanoids.

[Tomsdad]

Take your amphibious alien cephalopod. How does it function?

Can it support it's body and tentacles well out of water? (given it's amphibious one assumes so). Does it have the usual multiple dextrous and mobile cephalopod tentacles? If so I have little issue is saying this thing can easily use its tentacles to move about, but more importantly support itself as it uses other tentacles to grasp, climb, attack and defend quite happily.

Look at Octopi as they go about things (even out of water) I'd say they're not really 'prone to being prone' (ahem excuse me) other than issues of supporting their weight in the air which really just slows them down rather them make them 'prone'.


So yeah TBH drop a point or two of move.

Is this sci-fi? A zero gravity or low gravity Octopus would do pretty well I think!

Also if it's a cephalopod and it using it tentacles as limbs to move about then it has limbs that are vulnerable to crippling and immobilising them (if they lose enough).

But it seems your thinking not so much of tentacles for movement but more a kind of mollusc "foot"? Hence slithering.

Well that is a strong and stable locomotive platform* and no mistake, but yeah it's slow!


EDIT: I don't believe it, 3 hour morning lectures in Invertebrate zoology while horribly hungover have finally paid off, woot!



*great for invertebrates without a supportive exoskeleton to move with as well, as they really don't have lot of options here

[Tomsdad]

Sorry one last point, if you are looking at positional/morphological penalties for things that slither on the ground, there are the expanded rules for effective SM, height differential and reach in the Height Effects in the Combat Writ Large article (pyramid 3/77).


Of course I don't know what that does to the net 0pt net cost question!

[GodBeastX]

How does slithering affect jumping?