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Old 10-15-2022, 03:15 PM   #1
Prince Charon
 
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Default [Fantasy-Tech] Much Earlier Electrostatics

(This is listed under Fantasy-Tech because there's no evidence that I'm aware of that it happened like this in our history - so anyone preparing a pointless lecture on that fact need not waste time - and because I'm going to be stretching plausibility a bit.)

The first electrostatic generator in our history is a TL4 invention, from the mid-17th century (circa 1663, by Otto von Guericke). Less than a century later (the 1740s, so pretty much early TL5), simple electrostatic motors were invented by Andrew Gordon and Benjamin Franklin. However, at least in the case of the generator, all that would really be needed to invent it is an awareness of static electricity (the Ancient Greeks used to rub bits of amber to produce it, and amber jewelry existed much earlier, so it is at least possible for the phenomenon to have been known sooner), a basic knowledge of mechanics, and enough creativity to think 'what if we make this spin?' This, at least in theory, could have been done by a hypothetical Bronze Age civilization (so, TL1^, since it's Fantasy-Tech).

If I were fitting it into a semi-plausible Secret History sort of setting, I might put it on Thera, starting centuries before the big eruption. They tended to keep their electrostatic machines high on the mountain, both because it was the high-status area, and because it kept the sea air from interfering with them as much. Of course, this also meant that when the volcano went off, the evidence that they existed was destroyed. For a less plausible Secret History, or an 'edge of reality' alternate history, we can imagine Ancient Egypt or Ancient China developing electrostatics. Going into more divergent alternate worldlines, perhaps a Bronze Age civilization could have developed in the Americas (some of the native cultures weren't far off by the time Leif Eiriksson showed up in Vinland), and by the time regular European contact began, had invented sophisticated electrostatic technology.

In any case, I imagine an ancient noble or priest, or the child of a wealthy merchant coming up with the basic idea as a toy (or for a priest or priestess, perhaps as a way of displaying a minor example of divine power), and the amusing phenomenon made the item popular. As people made more and messed around with such devices, something like a Leyden jar could perhaps be invented. In our history this happened twice in 1745, so I would say that our hypothetical Bronze Age civilization might develop something similar after having electrostatic generators for two hundred years or more, and might develop electrostatic motors at around the same time (because they're doing this through trial-and-error, and probably don't have nearly as many people with idle time to play with this). Something else they might do are electrotherapy experiments of varying effectiveness; a few might even do something useful. Corona-discharge lamps are also a possibility, though they're probably more of a stretch.

Obviously, the more cinematic the setting is, the more impressive/ridiculous tech we can handwave with 'ancient mastery of electrostatics' as an explanation. Electrostatic computers (especially if they're electromechanical) could perhaps be 'justified' by pointing at the Antikythera mechanism, while electrical weapons are silly but Hollywood-plausible. Ancient Egyptian electrostatic robots in mummy-wrappings are a lot sillier, but would be an interesting surprise for the PCs who were expecting an actual walking mummy.

What sorts of interesting devices might they have, and what applications might they come up with for this technology? (For example, I imagine an Indiana Jones sort of archaeologist opening a tomb, and the movement of the door sets electrostatic generators spinning, activating the ancient defences and causing the eyes of a statue of Sutekh to glow violet.)

How might it affect their culture? I mean, if it remains just a toy, it wouldn't do much (Hero's steam ball didn't cause an industrial revolution, after all), but if they can do anything useful with it, it's going to change things, at least a little.

Alternatively, suppose the technology wasn't invented quite that early. Perhaps electrostatic generators are invented during the Carolingian Renaissance of the 8th and 9th centuries (early TL3), and the technology refined and expanded upon over the course of the alternate Medieval period.

(In case anyone is going to ask, this is probably not connected to any of my other ideas, unless some future GM decides that having a world like this would be interesting for something like Stargate Fantasy (magic makes cinematic tech more plausible, and I do have an idea for a character who uses this stuff, just not necessarily in that setting). Mainly, it's just another example of me being both Imaginative and Distractible.)
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Old 10-15-2022, 04:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Fantasy-Tech] Much Earlier Electrostatics

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post

What sorts of interesting devices might they have, and what applications might they come up with for this technology? (For example, I imagine an Indiana Jones sort of archaeologist opening a tomb, and the movement of the door sets electrostatic generators spinning, activating the ancient defences and causing the eyes of a statue of Sutekh to glow violet.)
The problem is there really aren't any. Those electrostatic motors aren't going to power any useful defenses, given that they have outputs best measured in milliwatts. That's pretty much the case all around, electrostatics simply don't accumulate very much energy. You are limited to relatively low energy sparks (probably not enough to do any damage), or exerting small forces on small objects - making hair stand on end, attracting ash or fluff, bending a stream of falling water a few degrees. In theory high dielectric constant materials might eventually allow you to build capacitors that could store something in the range of springs of similar size, so you maybe could [eventually] store enough energy to do something noticeable with TL6+ equipment, but even that is iffy. Maybe you could build a lighter (I've proposed before that jewelers messing with tourmaline might invent the piezoelectric lighter, but without distillation there aren't many fuels the energy content of a small electric spark is enough to ignite.
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Old 10-15-2022, 05:33 PM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Fantasy-Tech] Much Earlier Electrostatics

Could an electrostatic generator be used for electroplating? That was one of the proposed uses of the so-called Baghdad Battery, when it was thought to be a primitive battery. Another possibility could be an electromagnet - perhaps more one that you use to produce semi-permanent magnets than one that you use directly - but from what I understand, electrostatic generators are generally rather low amperage (if moderately-high voltage), and amperage is what matters for electromagnet strength.
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Old 10-15-2022, 05:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Fantasy-Tech] Much Earlier Electrostatics

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Could an electrostatic generator be used for electroplating? That was one of the proposed uses of the so-called Baghdad Battery, when it was thought to be a primitive battery. Another possibility could be an electromagnet - perhaps more one that you use to produce semi-permanent magnets than one that you use directly - but from what I understand, electrostatic generators are generally rather low amperage (if moderately-high voltage), and amperage is what matters for electromagnet strength.
A real battery can produce massively more energy output; the energy density of batteries is higher than that of capacitors, which I think is what electrostatic generators amount to.
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Old 10-15-2022, 05:53 PM   #5
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [Fantasy-Tech] Much Earlier Electrostatics

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Could an electrostatic generator be used for electroplating? That was one of the proposed uses of the so-called Baghdad Battery, when it was thought to be a primitive battery. Another possibility could be an electromagnet - perhaps more one that you use to produce semi-permanent magnets than one that you use directly - but from what I understand, electrostatic generators are generally rather low amperage (if moderately-high voltage), and amperage is what matters for electromagnet strength.
Both electroplating and electromagnets want high currents at fairly low voltages, which isn't the strength of electrostatics. Most practical uses for high voltage/low current involve a vacuum.
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Old 10-15-2022, 07:24 PM   #6
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Both electroplating and electromagnets want high currents at fairly low voltages, which isn't the strength of electrostatics. Most practical uses for high voltage/low current involve a vacuum.
I puzzled over this when I was writing GURPS High-Tech: Electricity and Electronics. It didn't seem quite right to say that you have high voltage/low current; for a given system---say, a human body---you have a given resistance, and by Ohm's law higher voltage has to give you higher current, not lower.

What's actually going on with electrostatic systems such as capacitors is that you have only a finite amount of charge; and therefore the high current that goes with the high voltage uses up that charge in a very short time. And when you average the current flow over a longer time---say, the very long span of a second!---the very brief spike of high current and the much longer interval of near-zero current give you a low average current---but the current flow isn't uniform over time. In contrast, with a battery, which can keep renewing the supply of electrons, the current flow can be nearly uniform over time, so the average current is effectively the same as the momentary current; and that average may be higher than the average for the brief electrostatic discharge.
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Old 10-15-2022, 08:22 PM   #7
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Fantasy-Tech] Much Earlier Electrostatics

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The problem is there really aren't any. Those electrostatic motors aren't going to power any useful defenses, given that they have outputs best measured in milliwatts. .
Tasers and contact stunners have outputs measured in milliwatts. Tasers aren't supposed to exceed 4 milliwatts and they risk stopping someone's heart at 8.

No doubt there's some other reason this wouldn't work (like maybe voltage, Tasers need high voltage) but "milliwatts" isn't it.
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Old 10-15-2022, 09:21 PM   #8
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Tasers and contact stunners have outputs measured in milliwatts. Tasers aren't supposed to exceed 4 milliwatts and they risk stopping someone's heart at 8.

No doubt there's some other reason this wouldn't work (like maybe voltage, Tasers need high voltage) but "milliwatts" isn't it.
A leyden jar can hold a lethal charge, but stunners are usually multiple multiple shocks, not a single large charge.
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