Technical Grappling (or FDG) with KYOS

[Kallatari]

For those who aren't aware, KYOS = Knowing Your Own Strength from Pyramid #3/83.


Has anyone tried using the Technical Grappling/Fantastic Dungeon Grappling rules - which is about inflicting and applying Control Points - with the log-based ST from KYOS?

I'm wondering about the application of Maximum Control Points, which is based on ST, and the effects that amount has on a subject, which is ultimately based on the ratio of Control Points inflicted to their own ST. A ST 10 human for example can only inflict a maximum of 10 Control Points via grappling.

With KYOS, the ST of larger creatures is greatly diminish. It therefore takes less Control Points to immobilize them. A ST 30 giant in the old rules would require 3 humans inflicting their maximum CP of 10 each to get the 100% control (by 100% I simply mean establish the same amount of CP on the target as his ST, not necessarily a full pin/immobilization). In KYOS, that ST 30 giant will now be about ST 20. It will therefore now only take 2 humans to achieve the 100% control. ST 50-ish drops to KYOS ST 30-ish (e.g., the elephant ST range), so we go from 5 average humans needed to achieve 100% to only 3. Should this be fixed so that it remains the same as it was before (i.e., it takes 5 people to get 100% control on KYOS 30)?

The other potential issue is that, if the grappling CP infliction is based on the KYOS thrust damage, by effective ST 24, it becomes possible to roll your Maximum CP value in a single attack if you roll maximum damage. As the ST goes up, it becomes easier to reach it. By the time you reach KYOS 100, you're doing 23d for an average of 80 vs your maximum of 100. Should this be fixed so that, for example, it takes roughly the same number of successful attacks to on average reach your maximum CP value?

The first of the two problems - requiring less average-ST humans to take down a larger target seems the most likely one to come up in a game. A single strong and skilled grappler will be able to significantly hamper/restrain larger creatures like ogres, bears, and the smaller variety of giants. Conversely, the old ST 30 giant who use to be able to pin a human in each hand with 15 CP now only has ST 20 and can only inflict 10 CP each, which may not fully immobilize them.

The second problem only really becomes noticeable with really high KYOS stats. So probably only in a Super campaign.

It's admittedly not a pressing issue as these aren't problems that appear frequently; only when dealing with ST way outside the human range. But it can certainly pop up, depending on the type of campaign you are playing.

So are these actually concerns? Do they need to be fixed? And if they do need to be fixed, what would you recommend as the solution?

[Antiquation!]

I wrote a patch that uses the KYOS multiples to determine the Control Maximums for FDG (so 1/2 your CM would be your ST-3, etc.). Like adventurer-scale ST bands, this pushes CM levels closer together.

Past that, it directly addresses Control Point accumulation with the following:
"When multiple grapplers gang up on a single target, use the highest individually applied Control Point total as the base Group Control Value. Divide the TOTAL applied CP from ALL the group's grapplers (including the "lead" grappler responsible for the base GCV value) by the GCV, then apply that ratio to the GCV as a KYOS ST bonus (see table below; between two values, use the lower). Once this bonus has been applied to the GCV, use the this total as the net CP applied to the target. Additionally, there is likely a maximum number of possible grappling participants depending on the relative SM of the target (it's difficult to imagine >6 people all grappling someone at the same time without lassos or similar!)."

Table goes (CP:GCV | Multi-Grapple GCV Bonus)
1.25 | +1
1.60 | +2
2.00 | +3
2.50 | +4
3.15 | +5
4.00 | +6
5.00 | +7
6.25 | +8
8.00 | +9
10.00 | +10

The above is not playtested, and zero edge cases and problem areas (of which there are likely many) have been ruminated on let alone explored; plus, no player (and few GMs) are going to want to deal with ratios at the table with numbers that can change every second of combat time. Grapple damage scaling (and therefore, damage scaling in general) is something best addressed by hitting the root of the disconnect through other means, in my experience.

Ultimately while I think they can technically work together given elbow grease, it's not particularly graceful and seems to defeat some of the elegance with both KYOS and FDG; I would suggest looking at Conditional Injury as an option for combination with KYOS, which many have taken swings at (the one that piques my interest the most here: http://samuelbaughn.blogspot.com/202...for-gurps.html) and take steps to address the damage problem. While I haven't looked into it enough to make a judgement, I would imagine FDG could graft on somewhere in there, somehow.

However, if you can stomach some of the awkwardness between FDG and KYOS as-is, it is technically feasible; much like KYOS (or really any published ST scaling) itself though, you have to be willing to accept certain eccentricities of the system that will occur at higher levels (look to Technical Grappling for additional bonuses to pull into FDG based on Size and Weight of the grapplers, as a couple of examples of things that would help patch certain cases).

Bottom line, IMO it's a little easier and less clunky finding modules that play more nicely together or are tailored with each other in mind. :)