Missile Spells and casting time reduction / multiplication

[Plane]

M9 (top left)

high skill has no effect on the cost to cast Blocking spells (pp. 12-13) or the time to cast Missile spells (p. 12).

This seems pretty straightforward because all of the missile spells take a single second to create a missile anyway, while turns 2/3 are for "Enlarge" (no idea what maneuver choice that would count as... a Concentrate?) so M9 s basically saying that high skill won't reduce the "Enlarge" time below 1 second.

The only other basic way that spells take longer to cast is via Ceremonial Casting, which M12 says isn't reduced for high skill anyway.

M9 (top right) has something interesting to think about in respect to missile spells: the Alternate Magic Rituals option which allows +1 to skill for x2 casting time.

In that case, if you wanted to create a 1d fireball and you only had skill 14 in fireball, instead of spending 1 second and 1 energy, you might spend 2 seconds and 0 energy?

If however you have skill 20 (you can halve casting time) you could normally halve a 2-second spellcasting into 1 second.

Should we be able to cast a +1 fireball (effective skill 21) in one second?

Also if you do cast a +1 fireball (takes 2 seconds to create) then what happens if you want to Enlarge it?

1) one second to enlarge, spell is still +1
2) two seconds to enlarge, spell is still +1
3) caster's option of 1 second to enlarge (loses the +1) or 2 seconds (keeps it)

[kirbwarrior]

The damage missile spells might be the second worst spells in Magic (right behind spells that would be perks or even not good enough as perks). The exceptions for which spells shouldn't get quicker casting time or cost reductions seems out of place. I've always let missile spells be cast faster and Blocking spells to be cheaper (or free!) and I've had zero issues with it. Fireball still isn't worth casting.

[Tymathee]

Apparently there's a "Spellslinger" advantage that Christopher Rice wrote up, but as far as I know it's not written specifically with standard GURPS Magic in mind but is easily reworked to suit it.

Specifically for Missile Spells, I might consider the following:

Quickened Missile Spell [3]

Must be specialized for a specific Missile Spell. You must know the Missile Spell at +16 skill level, and the appropriate Innate Attack skill at +16 skill level (this requirement is waived if you have the appropriate Psychic Guidance perk). When you attempt to cast the Missile Spell for only one second, you can skip needing to take a Concentrate Maneuver and rolling against your skill with the spell (FP cost must be paid immediately if applicable) and immediately roll to attack instead!

This is simply No Nuisance Roll (Rolling to cast a specific Missile Spell) [1] + Rules Exemption (First second of Concentration for a Missile Spell) [1] + Rules Exemption (No Nuisance Roll only for non-adventuring situations) [1].

Alternatively, I'd also just be inclined to make it a setting switch that anyone, both PCs and NPCs, may both roll to cast and roll to attack with Missile Spells in the same second at no penalty.

[DaosusLeghki]

In Delvers to Grow, there is the Heroic Spellslinger advantage. It allows you, among other things, to cast and throw a missile spell in one second. There's also Weapon Master(Missile Spells) in the same book that adds damage and other bonuses that make missile spells actually worth casting.

[Emerikol]

What I've done is make spells techniques, each school has a skill that is limited to no more than your Thaumatology.

I make the spells that are really not that useful have a low technique default. Sometimes just -1 or in rare cases 0. The stuff that is really useful has a higher penalty. This may not be realistic but it does address making it work from a game perspective.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

What I've done is make spells techniques, each school has a skill that is limited to no more than your Thaumatology.

I make the spells that are really not that useful have a low technique default. Sometimes just -1 or in rare cases 0. The stuff that is really useful has a higher penalty. This may not be realistic but it does address making it work from a game perspective.

I believe there's a similar option presented in Basic Set, but which bases the penalty off of how many prerequisites the spell has rather than how "useful" it is. It's more accessible as a quick-and-dirty way to assess the penalty, but yours is probably more useful (but also puts more work on the shoulders of the GM).

As for realism... it's magic. Who's to say how it works, other than the GM?

[Pursuivant]

Missile spells suffer from some of the worst, least "generic" assumptions in the game and were never properly overhauled during the GURPS 3E to 4E transition.

* They are carefully balanced against low-tech missile weapons.

* They assume that the caster has sufficient spell and Innate Attack skill to use missile spells effectively from a significant distance. Under normal circumstances they're about as long-ranged as a thrown weapon but not as effective as a bow, crossbow, or sling.

* They also usually top out at 3d damage, assuming that you can "grow" the spell at the rate of 1d per point of energy per second up to your level of Magery, which was historically topped at Magery 3. This makes them useless vs. high DR or very high HP targets. For example, DR 5 plate armor with +5 from Fortify enchantments (total DR 10) has a 50% chance of defeating even the strongest missile spell (3d = 10 HP damage on average).

Depending on TL and campaign style some or none of these premises are valid.

One simple house rule, not yet proposed by others, is to allow a time/skill tradeoff in order to cast spells more quickly. For example, -1 or -2 to spell skill per second shaved off the nominal casting cost, down to a minimum of 1 second. Maybe top out maximum time reduction at some multiple of Magery.

Another possibility to allow an energy cost/skill tradeoff in order to cast spells more cheaply. For example, -2 to skill per "missing" energy point. Again, maximum reduction might be topped out as some multiple of Magery.

If combined, these rules means that a mage with base spell skill 15 could pump out a 2d fireball every second with an effective skill of 12 without expending any energy (-1 energy for high skill, -1 energy for -2 penalty, -1 penalty for 1 second time reduction).

A fireball specialist with skill 20 could reliably launch a 3d fireball every second at effective skill 16 for no energy (by taking a -2 penalty for 2 seconds of time reduction and a -2 penalty for 1 point of energy reduction, along with -2 energy cost for basic skill level).

That's pretty devastating vs. non-magical weapons up to TL4.

At TL5 and higher, missile spells suck because guns become more effective. In such cases, a simple fix is to allow missile spells to have a RoF equal to (1+ (TL-4)~ for no extra cost. "Extra" missiles which you don't choose to hurl vanish with no ill effects. Likewise, if a spell explodes in your hand you only suffer basic damage, ignoring increased RoF.

For example, a TL8 mage could hurl fireballs with RoF 5~.

Combining all the rules, a typical TL8, skill 15 mage could reliably (-1 for reduced energy cost) hurl 5 1d fireballs every turn for no energy, with an effective skill of 14, making them competitive with a gunfighter armed with a machine pistol. A TL8 fireball specialist could hurl 5 3d fireballs every second, making them competitive with a SMG.

Against hard targets, the GM could allow a -1 penalty to skill per extra multiple of basic spell damage (i.e., usually +1d, but possibly +2d for powerful artillery-type spells). Maximum penalty is limited by some multiple of Magery + TL. Say Magery x (TL-4, minimum 1) x 5.

Mages might also get bonuses for taking extra time to build their missile spells, giving +1 per additional second taken after 3 seconds.That allows mages to "overload" their missile spells allowing them to do massive amounts of damage given sufficient time to build the spell and offset penalties for increased damage. At higher TL, penalties for "overload" might be reduced or the bonus for extra time spent to offset overload penalties might be increased (e.g., by (TL-4).

For example, a TL3 Magery 3 mage could take 10 seconds to overload a fireball to do 10d, taking no penalty by spending 14 seconds (7 extra seconds to offset the -7 penalty for building the spell beyond the normal 3d maximum). That's only slightly less effective than a heavy machine gun bullet and has a RoF comparable to a TL4-5 swivel gun.

With time, they could build the spell to a maximum 18d, by taking the maximum penalty of (Magery 3 x 1 x 5) -15 and concentrating for 21 seconds. By concentrating for 36 seconds to offset penalties, they could cast a monster fireball at no penalty.

At TL8, the same mage would get a +4 bonus per second spent to counter "overload" penalties, meaning that they'd only have to spend 12 seconds. Combined with increased RoF for higher TL, that gives the mage the equivalent of a burst of machine gun fire every 12 seconds.

With time, the same mage could take a maximum penalty of -60! That potentially creates a 63d fireball, equivalent to an ATGM but without the damage divisor. If they take an extra 15 seconds to counter the overload, they can cast at no penalty, meaning 18 seconds between shots. That's competitive with the reload time for an ATGM.

You could also go the AD&D route and allow Perks which boost missile spell casting times, range, RoF, or damage, or which reduce range penalties or energy costs. These could be treated as "Auxiliary Spells" which use "The Least of Spells" rules.

[Mister Negative]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

* They also usually top out at 3d damage, assuming that you can "grow" the spell at the rate of 1d per point of energy per second up to your level of Magery, which was historically topped at Magery 3. This makes them useless vs. high DR or very high HP targets. For example, DR 5 plate armor with +5 from Fortify enchantments (total DR 10) has a 50% chance of defeating even the strongest missile spell (3d = 10 HP damage on average).

Ummm...the rules for missile spells specify that you can invest an amount of energy up to your Magery Level, each second, for up to three seconds. A Magery 2 wizard can output a 6d Fireball. A Magery 3 wizard can output a 9d Fireball (so 31.5 damage on average).

Admittedly, if your campaign limits mages to Magery 1, or doesn't provide any convenient way of supplementing Fatigue (Energy Reserve, Powerstones, Power Items, Paut), then a Fireball wizard is going to be less effective there, relative to other spell-slingers who aren't scaling by Magery level or Fatigue dependent.

But in a 'standard' Magery 3, Energy Reserve campaign, a wizard with a missile spell can be quite a bit more dangerous than a good crossbow.

Now, if you are running a Dungeon Fantasy game with Weapon Master and Heroic Archer, they will seem a bit tame, maybe, but hey, maybe you have an armored foe that the Knight can't scratch, but the wizard with Magery 6 and his 18d Stone Missile can smash.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

* They also usually top out at 3d damage, assuming that you can "grow" the spell at the rate of 1d per point of energy per second up to your level of Magery, which was historically topped at Magery 3. .

As Mr. Negative notes, these are not the rules for 4e. They were the rules for 3e but were changed.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

But in a 'standard' Magery 3, Energy Reserve campaign, a wizard with a missile spell can be quite a bit more dangerous than a good crossbow.

Actually, using crossbow as a comparison is a good one. A crossbow can be nocked and loaded ahead of time with little downside, bolts are cheap and have a chance of replenishing (aka picking them up), it has good range, and does solid damage. Fireball must be cast now OR have the dangerous side effects of holding it, it has the sizable cost of not just MP but a lot of MP, it has middling range, and it announces its presence (it's much easier to see a fireball in flight than a bolt).

They both have a fairly sizable initial cost; good crossbows cost a good chunk of money and you might further want Signature Gear and Fast Draw, Fireball costs a good amount of points in both Magery and Innate Attack (skill) but both can be used with other things with little investment (because with enough magery, other spells are basically perks).