Do magic bonuses stack with fine weapon bonuses?

[Petrovski101]

I've tried googling this answer and reading the rules but I haven't had much luck finding information about weapon enchantments on weapons crafted by a master armorer. Maybe I just missed it in the rules...

I'm aware of the rule of 5 as it pertains to the total magic bonus (DEX bonus + DMG bonus). Does this also apply if the weapon already has a DEX bonus and/or DMG bonus due to weapon quality?

If it is up to the GM, I'm inclined to allow it... but I'm not very experienced with TFT's game engine. I've only just started rereading the rules after a 40 year hiatus. Does anyone believe combining mundane and magic bonuses to be broken?

Any help appreciated...

Thanks,

Pete

[larsdangly]

This is a really good question. There is a passage in the rules on Attribute Enhancing Items (a greater magic item) that indicates total DX bonus from all magical sources can't exceed 5 (though, strictly speaking, it only clearly states that the total of an Attribute Enhancing enchantment + another source can't exceed 5, so no limit is placed on the total of 2 or more other sources). You can find another passage that says the highest bonus applies rather than adding, though I can't recall the context. Finally, it says you cant use attribute enhancers to raise final adjusted DX for an action above 14 (though this includes penalties from armor and perhaps other things). Frankly, it is all pretty confusing, and says nothing about adding fine weapon and magic enhancements. So, you will get answers that provide opinions, but they won't be definitive rulings.

Personally, I think magic and fine weapon bonuses should stack.

Edit: the magic item rules can 'break' a game if you permit one side to have very high bonus items and other side doesn't. Typically, that means Monty Haul distribution to players while NPCs and monsters go without. If you play TFT this way, PCs can be nearly invincible. But if this happens, the GM is to blame. The RAW governing the creation, prices and market availability of fine and magic weapons are actually pretty limiting. In my campaign, I don't hand out much in the way of magic items as treasure, little is available for direct purchase, and players often undertake their own enchantments to get the things they want. No one is going to bust open the rule of 5 very soon in a game like that. But, if you like games where PCs are extremely geared up, you can do it. And if that's fun for everyone, go for it!

[Axly Suregrip]

Hi Petrovski,
I would say there is nothing in the rules against it. I would say it is recommended. Let me explain.

Short answer: rule of 5 governs enchantments alone, not if the weapon is a fine weapon. So, yes they stack.

With armor enchantments, a +1 enchantment is in addition to the armor. If the armor is fine plate, it is in addition to that resulting in a -7 armor, not instead of it. There likewise for weapons. If an enchantment is cast upon a very fine +2 damage sword, it is raised to a +3. The rules for enchanting spell sites the rule of 5, but this is a rule that governs enchantment, not the quality of the materials that is enchanted. So, yes you can have a very fine +2 sword with a +5 enchantment.

The reasons I say it is recommended:

- the enchantments costs (time and money to do so) are all listed assuming the previous enchantment. That is, to cast a +3 enchantment on a sword, you must already have a sword with a +2 enchantment on it. So, getting to +3 or +4 by enchantment alone would take a lot.

- very fine weapons that do +2 damage are much harder to break. Given you (or some wizard) want to make the effort to enhance a weapon, he would want it to last and not just break on average after 216 swings. See ITL page 123.

[Petrovski101]

It seems there's nothing in the rules against combining enchantments with fine quality weapons.

As a new TFT GM, I'd like to know what is typically seen for weapon bonuses in your typical game (if such a thing exists). Is it common to see +1 to hit, +7 damage magic swords or is that merely the stuff of legends?

My primary concern is "breaking" the game by letting weapon bonuses get out of hand.

I haven't crunched the numbers yet so maybe the $ value of fine, enchanted weapons at this level of power make their existence exceedingly rare.

[Axly Suregrip]

I allow fine weapons and armor to be purchased and available. NPCs will also sometimes have fine weapons/armor.

I allow magic weapons and items to be created. No one has taken that up.

For purchase, only potions and scrolls are available. Or at the rare village with a wizard capable of weapon enchantments (no cities in my world, so even weapon enchanting is rare) this can be arranged but at triple the going rate. Bring your own weapon. BYOW. The locals in that case may have some +1 enchanted weapons. Oh and even if you had the cash for a +2,+3,etc you may not find a village with enough wizards capable as each additional +1 takes addition wizards capable of casting it. So, I keep a cap on it and magic weapons are rare.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Petrovski101

It seems there's nothing in the rules against combining enchantments with fine quality weapons.

As a new TFT GM, I'd like to know what is typically seen for weapon bonuses in your typical game (if such a thing exists). Is it common to see +1 to hit, +7 damage magic swords or is that merely the stuff of legends?

My primary concern is "breaking" the game by letting weapon bonuses get out of hand.

I haven't crunched the numbers yet so maybe the $ value of fine, enchanted weapons at this level of power make their existence exceedingly rare.

It seems to me most of the folks here are loathe to introduce powerful magic, since it becomes a problem of inflation. The next scenario, the opponents have to be buffed and the easy way to do that is give them magic goodies.

In the labyrinth I'd like to play next, there's one magic dagger (+1DX, +1dam) that applies its bonus only in HTH and there's one fine Broadsword. I included one arrow with Clumsiness on it. I think that's it for special weapons.

I've tried to add useful but not overpowering magic. One treasure (that will likely be overlooked) is a bag of softly glowing powder and a brush. When the brush is dipped in the powder and painted on a wall, you're left with a softly glowing wall. There's not enough powder to light up a room, but plenty to track where you've been and leave messages. (In fact, there's no reason this has to be magical at all, but I've decided it is, partly so the delvers recognize it's worth investigating.)

[TippetsTX]

While it might be unclear from the rules, I would recommend caution in stacking too many bonuses. The range of possible die roll results in TFT are very sensitive to modifiers, much more than D&D and other RPGs. Excluding the occasional powerful monster, most of your common opponents won't have ST higher than 15 so a weapon with +7 to damage would be extremely powerful, certainly more powerful than I would want in my campaign.

[larsdangly]

I generally agree with what is written above (and it conforms with how I run my current campaign), but I think there is also a place for gonzo monty haul treatment of items. Games are supposed to be fun, and it could be fun to mix and match all the abilities that can arise from items, particularly given the human(oid) frailty that typifies most TFT characters. I'm reminded of a truly demented D+D campaign I briefly ran as a 12 year old (back in the 70's), where the town was full of Balrogs ('Balors' I suppose) and the characters were first level (because that is where the game says you start!), so I made sure the PC's had a full allotment of +5 weapons, armor and shield with a few special extras thrown in for good measure. It was stupid but also fun. So why not?

[hcobb]

Note that fine weapons can be much more affordable than enchantments if you start with a low-ST weapon

ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11 Fencer
Very fine Rapier (1d +2 +1) avg 6.5 per hit, $800, and -1 to be hit

Will put her first four attribute increases into DX 16 for a 74% chance of doing 2d+3, then move on to Master Fencer.

[Helborn]

While the GAME limits to +5, there is nothing to say that a CAMPAIGN cannot have lower limits.

Personally, I run campaigns with a either a +2 and 2 enchantment limit or a +3 and 3 enchantment limit (no group of enchanters larger than 2 (or 4) and mostly unwilling to spend extra time to enchant anything higher unless you are willing to throw insane amounts of money at them).

But even then you have to wait the weeks and months and years before your item is ready!!!

But Fine Weapons and Enchantments do stack.

I rarely provide fine weapons that are both +Dmg and +DX. Usually either/or. If a player wishes to order one of those +1/+2Dmg/+1DX weapons then they can wait the 20 - 150 game weeks it takes a Master Armorer (and Goldsmith if it's going to be made of silver - only 1 in every 10 large towns - go find him.....) to make! And full payment up front! (or else you better have something that grants a +1 or more to reactions and roll a 6....)