Thieves

[tbone]

Originally Posted by malloyd

But makes you look increasingly like a Swashbuckler.

Yeah, that's a point. Though it doesn't bother me, for several reasons:

• As you aptly point out, many professions steal from what were originally thief specialties in early RPGs. Is it at all inappropriate that the thief also do some stealing in return? : )
• Thieves and swashbucklers are of an ilk to begin with (both DX-heavy light fighters, and both equally "rogues" in some games). Similarities & overlap are inevitable.
• Even if the thief does "steal" some swashbuckler spotlight... if there's no swashbuckler in the party, no theft occurred.
• If there is a swashbuckler but the player doesn't object to seeing another light fighter get beefed up a bit... again, no problem.
• Even if there's a swashbuckler player who wants the expert light fighter spotlight to himself, all I'm talking about is thieves boosting their main weapon skill by 1 or 2 levels. IMO, a thief boosting his weapon skill to a lofty 4 points won't challenge the swashbuckler's 20-point weapon skill spend + Weapon Master + Combat Reflexes + Enhanced Parry + another 60 points in fighting-centric advantages.

In short, I see no problem with a thief boosting combat prowess a bit. Thieves' abilities are spread widely, with other professions nibbling at them from over direction, as you rightly point out. I think a thief should pick some narrow area or two to beef up, rather than staying spread all over.

[sjmdw45]

Here's an annoying thing about thieves that I noticed while running doomchildren simultations:

A successful backstab means that "[w]hen setting up the battle map, the delver starts one step away from and behind this target." However, thieves have only average speed, 6.00 by default, so it's very possible for a successful backstab not only to result in you not getting the backstab bonus (+4 to hit, no defense possible) because the target has already moved--it's quite possible for a successful backstab to result in you getting stabbed by multiple targets both ahead of and behind you before you even get a chance to do anything!

Backstabbing is only good against things that are surprised or slower than you, which isn't necessarily unrealistic, but does mean that Swashbucklers are better at backstabbing than Thieves are.

[sir_pudding]

They have to detect you to attack you. IME, at least with the ninja, that rarely happens with most monsters.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They have to detect you to attack you. IME, at least with the ninja, that rarely happens with most monsters.

You're right there in front of them, and unlike e.g. D&D 5E I see no indication in DFRPG's rules that Stealth makes you undetectable in combat, especially when out in the open. Stealth helps you gain surprise, as long as you qualify under Exploits pg 26 "Surprise Attacks" (not in a field or empty room with no hiding spots), but that's all pre-combat stuff.

A better version of Backstabbing rules would maybe be to let you pick your position anywhere on the field while also letting you do runaround attacks as a true "rear" attack on the first turn, instead of a side attack.

[sir_pudding]

I typically put backstabbing characters in hidden places since they got there by stealth. Also this was the ninja, so Invisibility Art was in play.

[Kalzazz]

This thread may be helpful on Backstab

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...light=Backstab

Kromm clarifies how revealing works, so when you attack

[sir_pudding]

I'll note the phrase "effectively invisible behind the enemy" from Kromm's first post in that thread.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

This thread may be helpful on Backstab

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...light=Backstab

Kromm clarifies how revealing works, so when you attack

But later on in the same thread, Kromm concedes that backstab is primarily useful only in ambushes: 'Normally, you backstab in ambush, where the enemy is surprised and must spend one turn on Do Nothing. That makes the sequence: "I backstab, they Do Nothing, I use Move to run back over by my pals."'

And that assumes the thief has higher speed than the enemy, otherwise it's "the enemy Does Nothing, I backstab, the enemy and all his buddies turn around and destroy me."

Honestly the biggest surprise from that thread is Kromm's implication that you can use Stealth to stay hidden in combat EVEN WITHOUT A HIDING PLACE until you do something aggressive, as if Stealth were the Invisibility spell. I am honestly a bit skeptical that that's really intended because DFRPG/GURPS trends toward realism wherever possible, but if so then I suggest that MOST delvers should stay hidden most of the time. Buff the Swashbuckler to the gills with Haste, Shield, Armor, etc. and let him be the only one the monsters can see.

I think Kromm's suggestion later in the thread that Backstab be reserved for ambushes against slower creatures makes more sense, as do the suggestions from other posters that you get to choose your location (e.g. start behind the evil Necromancer instead of just his closest minion).

Ultimately I think backstabbing is a nice attempt at a time-saving procedure for skipping right to the exciting part of an encounter, and its general idea is right, but the rules need to be tweaked. (And even then, Scouts, Martial Artists, and Swashbucklers all wind up being better than Thieves at exploiting backstabbing in most scenarios.)

[sir_pudding]

It's trivial to assume a hiding place. I do.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's trivial to assume a hiding place. I do.

It's nontrivial because Backstabbing requires you to be hiding in a specific hex, directly behind the nearest enemy. I'm finding that that's often just empty corridor space, sometimes right in front of another enemy.

"When setting up the battle map, the delver starts one step away from and behind this target."

So one of the rules tweaks Backstabbing needs is to give you more choice of where to place the backstabber when combat begins.