Ultra-Tech Classic VS 4e

[hal]

Hello Folks,
Not certain if this kind of thread exists elsewhere, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

As I work at populating equipment lists for campaigns, whether I use Classic Ultra-tech or the newer version depends on which sourcebook I'm using and what I'm trying to emulate. For instance, Classic Ultra-tech books were used with GURPS TRAVELLER and almost mandate that one uses that for their GURPS TRAVELLER campaigns over against the newer book. Me? I'm good with using either - largely because I also use GURPS VEHICLES for my campaigns regardless of whether or not it is a true classic campaign or a true 4e campaign (hence why I often refer to my campaigns as GURPS 3.5).

I am curious however. Has anyone done a side by side comparison between the two systems and where they are more or less the same as opposed to where they don't quite see eye to eye?

For example - Power cells in Classic were had specific rules/guidelines for how much they weighed or were priced based upon a specific mathematical formula. As I attempt to work with the 4e version, I find it passing odd that although the weights are in multiples of 10 larger/smaller than the next size up/down - the prices do not follow that same guideline.

Another item of interest for me was the TL assignment for Gauss weaponry. I understand that because 4e compressed the Tech levels a fair bit, and that what used to be TL 8 and TL 9 in the Classic Ultra-Tech were more or less merged in together as TL 9 in 4e Ultra-Tech, but even so, I was surprised to see that the two books largely disagreed upon where/when Gauss weaponry comes into play.

Now, I know if I want to, I can simply reassign the TL tag to items, such that something listed as TL 10 in the book can be made to be TL 9 in a campaign. But the purpose of this thread is more to explore the differences between the two books in such a way as to perhaps give a heads up for those who blithely assume they're comparable with each other.

Thoughts? Comments?

[hal]

Analysis of the Batteries:

If you assume that the amount of energy is X (I know, how dare I use algebra!), then the weight to hold X energy is .0005 lbs and costs $1.

If the next battery up is 10x the capacity as well as 10x the weight, why wasn't the pricing set to 10x the cost? In this case, it worked out to 10x the capacity and 10x the weight, but only 2x cost.

Then we get to the next battery up - 100x the capacity and 100x the weight, yet only 3x the cost.

It isn't until we finally reach a battery that is 1000x the capacity and 1000x the weight, that we hit the x10 cost.

So, I'm a little curious how this came to be.

[onetrikpony]

Originally Posted by hal

Hello Folks,


For example - Power cells in Classic were had specific rules/guidelines for how much they weighed or were priced based upon a specific mathematical formula. As I attempt to work with the 4e version, I find it passing odd that although the weights are in multiples of 10 larger/smaller than the next size up/down - the prices do not follow that same guideline.


Thoughts? Comments?

I think that E & F size power cells in UT (4) are a different technology than the smaller cells. They have a much higher energy density. They're lighter (per output unit) than D-cells and still follow the $/lb pricing.

[hal]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

I think that E & F size power cells in UT (4) are a different technology than the smaller cells. They have a much higher energy density. They're lighter (per output unit) than D-cells and still follow the $/lb pricing.

Unfortunately, if this is the case, then I have to wonder why. These are all supposed to be the same technology level (TL 9) and they only improve with each increasing tech level increment.

That being said, GURPS VEHICLES for 3e set the standard for use with such genre books as TRAVELLER, TRANSHUMAN SPACE etc.

The purpose of this thread however, is to compare/contrast the two books (one can always include ULTRA-TECH 2 as well) in ways that people might appreciate seeing further down the road.

So, if you spot anomalies here or there, post'em here. :)

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by onetrikpony

I think that E & F size power cells in UT (4) are a different technology than the smaller cells.

Power cells "may be advanced electrical batteries, micro fuel cells, superconductor loops, or even more exotic power supplies." In other words, the technology on which they are based is up to the GM. If you want to explain the different weight progression as a different technology for the larger sizes, that's fine, but it could just be a single technology that doesn't scale according to a simple logarithmic curve.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by hal

Hello Folks,
Not certain if this kind of thread exists elsewhere, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

As I work at populating equipment lists for campaigns, whether I use Classic Ultra-tech or the newer version depends on which sourcebook I'm using and what I'm trying to emulate. For instance, Classic Ultra-tech books were used with GURPS TRAVELLER and almost mandate that one uses that for their GURPS TRAVELLER campaigns over against the newer book. Me? I'm good with using either - largely because I also use GURPS VEHICLES for my campaigns regardless of whether or not it is a true classic campaign or a true 4e campaign (hence why I often refer to my campaigns as GURPS 3.5).

I am curious however. Has anyone done a side by side comparison between the two systems and where they are more or less the same as opposed to where they don't quite see eye to eye?

For example - Power cells in Classic were had specific rules/guidelines for how much they weighed or were priced based upon a specific mathematical formula. As I attempt to work with the 4e version, I find it passing odd that although the weights are in multiples of 10 larger/smaller than the next size up/down - the prices do not follow that same guideline.

Another item of interest for me was the TL assignment for Gauss weaponry. I understand that because 4e compressed the Tech levels a fair bit, and that what used to be TL 8 and TL 9 in the Classic Ultra-Tech were more or less merged in together as TL 9 in 4e Ultra-Tech, but even so, I was surprised to see that the two books largely disagreed upon where/when Gauss weaponry comes into play.

Now, I know if I want to, I can simply reassign the TL tag to items, such that something listed as TL 10 in the book can be made to be TL 9 in a campaign. But the purpose of this thread is more to explore the differences between the two books in such a way as to perhaps give a heads up for those who blithely assume they're comparable with each other.

Thoughts? Comments?

David L. Pulver stated several things about the 3e version of Ultra-Tech ("gadgets were pushed forward a TL or so just to give me something useful to prevent the TL11-16 chapters from being too empty!") and how its TL's convert to 4e.

"Theoretically and very roughly:
upper half 3eTL7 = TL8
3eTL8 = 4eTL9
3eTL9 = 4eTL10 and some TL9-10^
3eTL10 = 4eTL11 and some TL10-11^
3eTL11 = 4eTL11 and some TL10-11^
3eTL12 = 4eTL11 and TL10-11^
3eTL13 = 4eTL11 and TL11^
3eTL14 = 4eTL12 and some TL11-12^
3eTL15 = 4eTL12^
3eTL16 = 4eTL12^
A few individual items drop or gain in TL."

The GURPSwiki has a Traveller 5e to GURPS TL conversion page

In short 12 (C) and above is effectively TL11^ in GURPS 4e while 16 (G) and above is effectively TL13 in GURPS 3e.

A far more detailed chart can be found at the Traveller wiki under Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta, Description (Specifications) but it is using an older Traveler Tech Level system.

[Joseph Paul]

I really liked 3e UT and UT2 but what didn't make it into 4e UT?

Is there a list anywhere?

[hal]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Power cells "may be advanced electrical batteries, micro fuel cells, superconductor loops, or even more exotic power supplies." In other words, the technology on which they are based is up to the GM. If you want to explain the different weight progression as a different technology for the larger sizes, that's fine, but it could just be a single technology that doesn't scale according to a simple logarithmic curve.

And I would have to agree this is a valid point of view. But I have to question it as well. GURPS VEHICLES and consequently many of the products created for 3e versions of battery power, all used the same basic formula. If I recall correctly however, the energy density of said batteries by formula, were on the same order as explosives as far as energy discharge how much energy they held etc. Better chemists and/or Physicists or at least better educated individuals can explain it far better than I could even hope to explain. ;)

None the less - different technological approaches to these "super batteries" was already inherent in the increasingly more potent power storage functionality.

Point is - by using Algebra to try and quantify the rules used for ULTRATECH for 4e, the results were as follows:

For AA cells, the Weight per X units of energy ended up being .0005 lbs per, and weighed 1 lb per unit of X energy.

For A cells, the Weight per unit of X remained at .0005, but now the cost became 20 cents per unit of X energy.

For B cells, the remain remains .0005 lbs per X energy, but now changes to 3 cents per unit of X energy.

For C and D cells, the weight per unit of X remains .0005, but now the cost has changed to 1 cent per X units of energy.

For E and F cells, the weight per unit changes to .0002 lbs per unit of X, and the cost becomes 2 cents per X units of energy.

Now, this is essentially "how many angels can dance on a pinhead" type of situation (which should be amended to how many can dance on a pinhead at the same time - because if one can dance on a pinhead, over eternity of time, presumably one dances, steps off, the next dances, steps off, etc until the answer becomes they call can - But I digress...)

If the expenses rise because the outside jacket required to house the battery becomes more expensive, you would likely think that the material is going to be heavier than the actual battery storage components. You would think that the weight per unit of energy would increase as well. But as the batteries for E and F demonstrate, this is not the case. The weight becomes LESS than its smaller cousins, and the cost per unit of X doubles. The price per unit of X starts at $1, then at the next battery level, drops to 20 cents per unit of X. That is an 80% reduction right then and there. Toss in that the next level of battery size, and the cost becomes one of 3 cents per unit of X (a reduction in cost by 97%).

In reality? Sometimes there is a certain efficiency of mass production where making things small may be more difficult. Making things in smaller lots may make it a more expensive process. Making something and selling it at cost might sound like stupid way to run a business, but some companies will sell things at a loss because they induce people to buy other things that have a higher profit margin. Selling batteries at cost so that you can also manufacture devices that require those self-same specialized batteries would be a viable business strategy. In all fairness however, these numbers do not match my expectations. They don't match the approach taken in GURPS VEHICLES for pricing batteries nor determining their physical attributes.

Whether you like this or don't like it is fine. Whether you think "Hey, this is not something I want in my game universe" and decide to fix it, at least you have a means for solving for the equations...

If Weight per unit of X energy is standardized, as is Cost per unit of X energy, then this is how things world look across the board for all classes of Battery. I'm going to go with weight as .0005 lbs per Unit of X energy because that is clearly the standard up to D cells.

Picking a price per unit of X energy is a little more difficult. The AVERAGE price for the 7 batteries works out to be about 18 cents per unit of X. If you throw out the AA cells, then the average becomes more along the lines of .05 cents per unit of X energy. If you only use B through F cells, then the price per unit of X energy becomes .018 which is closer to the .02 pricing per unit of X energy.

Let's use those standards then. Weight is .0005 lbs per X units of energy, and costs 2 cents per unit of X.

2 cents per AA cell, weighs .0005 lbs (A single ounce is .0625 lbs)
20 cents per A cell, weighs .005 lbs
$2 per B cell, weighs .05 lbs (almost an ounce)
$20 per C cell, weighs .5 lbs (8 ounces)
D cells weigh 5 lbs, costs $200
E cells weigh 20 lbs, $2,000
F cells weigh 200 lbs, costs $20,000

Mind you? I would probably bump up the cost for AA cells by at least a factor of two or more simply because whether it costs you a given amount to manufacture a product, it still costs you a certain amount of money to package the item for retail sales. Handling those really SMALL batteries has to be difficult - and the packaging costs for the batteries is going to likely be the same whether it is for AA batteries or for B batteries. When I went from a large hearing aid battery down to something smaller - the prices for the batteries remained the same despite being smaller, holding less energy, and lasting less time. I got gyped *teasing grin*

[hal]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

I really liked 3e UT and UT2 but what didn't make it into 4e UT?

Is there a list anywhere?

Good question. I've already took the time to create excel spreadsheets listing the goods in both ULTRATECH 1 & 2, so it shouldn't be too much extra work to compare the two versions of Ultratech (classic vs 4e) to see what was left out and what wasn't.

Also, to my recollection, some of the Ultratech wonder drugs were left out of the original Classic versions of Ultratech, but later incorporated in GURPS BIO-TECH for 4e. Don't know if that counts or not as not including it in the 4e stats...

[The_Ryujin]

While in 4th ed power cells specific energy were left purposely nebulous in the final version they initially based on Transhuman Spaces's power packs with TL 9 ones having half the energy of the equivalent Transhuman power pack.

That is a TL 9 power cell has a specific energy of 180kJ/lbs. Now you might be saying that seems a bit low but that's because power cells were orginally just advanced capacitors, they have low energy but can discharge effectively instanly making them ideal for devices where power delivery is most important (as in energy weapons). For devices that need endurance over power, orginally as in Transhuman Space there were also going to be batteries (or what Transhuman Space called energy cells for whatever reason) but I don't know the numbers that David used though if I'd have to guess they hold 10x the energy as a power cell but can only discharge 1kW per 900kJ.

Now why do E and D cells hold more energy then the smaller cells? That's because they "HP" power cells, they hold 2.5 times the energy but cost 10 times as much. Technically this option ca. Be applied to smaller cells as well.

This being said, while these are the numbers David used they are not technically official but even if they were in the end they hold however much power you need for game to work.

Also note that that David has since updated his assumptions on how much energy power cells hold and the GURPS vehicles design system energy bank design rules will give results that differ greatly from Ultra-Tech, Space Ships, and The Blaster and Energy Design System. It will also give several upgrade options.