Alternate Crosstime Organizations

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've never been under the impression that people taken to Coventry are simply abandoned there. If only so criminals, activists, and businessmen don't raid it for talent. The whole point of Coventry is to be a better option that killing people.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I don't see how that would work, effectively. If you have a place that you bring people in, that's a fixed point that is vulnerable to attack. It would make more sense to simply drop them at a known point, give them a sack of food and a compass and tell them to "walk north."

Originally Posted by ericthered

The TL8 medicine it has is almost certainly shipped in.

Which would have to be blind-dropped in, or they risk losing the conveyor, that they're going to bring back, to local insurgents. Insurgents that are familiar with Infinity's methods and tactics. Unless Infinity supports a fortress there that they regularly bring supplies to. Or use their victims as serfs.

Which, honestly, would be an interesting idea for a campaign, and a much easier method for escaping from Coventry in a normal IW campaign.

Originally Posted by ericthered

Yes, the folks are torn from their worlds, their families, their livelihoods and their life work. Yes, That's a severe emotional blow.

It's beyond cruel as some of those people have done nothing wrong. They're just not desirable. Those that have useful skills, but aren't willing to work for Infinity, are going to be local power-barons, eager to get out of this mess. And they're going to be a valid, dangerous threat to any method of extraction.

Originally Posted by ericthered

But physically they're taken care of.

Only if they do what they're told. This isn't a prison, it's a penal colony. A penal colony stocked with some people who have committed little more than a though crime.

Originally Posted by ericthered

And most of them don't have much of their freedom taken away either.

Other than they've lost their rights and have no ability to appeal. They've lost their freedom to communicate with their families. They've lost the freedom to travel freely.

Originally Posted by ericthered

They are free to roam about their village on an empty world with plenty of food and a decent bed, make friends, and live lives. Just not the lives they'd planned on.

And Infinity just has that as their right. They can choose to do this because they don't like someone who's only crime was that they knew something Infinity decided was controlled. That's not a freedom, that's a horribly oppressive government.

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm not saying I'd like to go there. I'm just saying you won't die within 3 months of being dropped there.

I'm sure some survive, but, unless they're taking a census, they have no idea how many die within three months of being dropped there. And I doubt they even care.

But, just by having this conversation, if Infinity saw it, we would both be sent to Coventry. Sure, I have some useful skills in the security industry sector, but, I'm sure they've got just as skilled people already, and my information isn't going to be terribly useful on a mission. So, off to Coventry for me. I'm a TL8 guy, I won't survive long at TL4. Sure, I grew up on a ranch, but it's been a lo-oo-oo-oo-ng time since I've bailed hay and raised rabbits and chickens. Horses, cows and pigs are right out.

Could I do it? Probably not. I have a lot of minor health issues that, while TL8 medicine can happily take care of me, don't really leave me capable of doing extensive physical, manual labor.

While, I'm certain, with extensive time, a job for me could be found, until then I'd be dead-weight, which isn't something TL4 likes to support. I'm not nobility, and that's probably not really something Coventry has to deal with.

[ravenfish]

On a happier note about Coventry, it is filled with many of the greatest minds ever to turn their thoughts towards cross-world travel, many of them from directions Infinity has never even considered. Sure, leaving is impossible using Infinity's technology, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Locking up the escape artists... my headcannon is that this is now the home base of a significant third crosstime faction, putting on a facade for the benefit of their "captors".

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Do I really need to point out that this was an ad hominem.

That's a misuse of the fallacy. I am not arguing that your argument is illogical because of your personal qualities. I'm arguing that it wasn't based on "facts"...which is to say canon.

Sure, they might know where she's from, they might not. They might even tell her. But, if they do know, are they actually going to let her go?

Assuming she says "yes" to the job offer...yes they will. (Provided that the interview indicates that she's willing to sign on.). She's a valuable recruit and they'd go out of their way to make it worth her while to sign on.

And uniting her with her family is absurd. Are they going to go kidnap them? The family of a missing UN worker also goes missing. That's sure to raise some eyebrows.

Well actually given that she disappeared in the explosion it seems likely that they'd assume she was dead unless they were really careful checking the DNA of the body parts. But apart from that, it's hardly necessary for them to be abducted if the husband wants to be reunited with her. They could probably get his full cooperation in announcing he was moving away to a new job and a new life. Or if they can come up with a suitable cover story, she could just go home. She's a world-jumper. That makes commutes easy.

Infinity is not about to let someone go who knows anything related to The Secret.

That's true. They aren't. If she rejects their recruitment offers, then they will try to imprison her. Their canonical approach is NOT to shoot her. It's to strand her in Conventry. She may have a cosmic world-jumper ability that Coventry can't stop but they don't know that. All that means is that she'll successfully escape. But they will do their best to convince her to sign on, providing all reasonable incentives.

Which, really, is the same thing as killing them, you're just doing it in an incredibly inhumane method. We've taken them somewhere they can never return from and simply dropped them off. How is this better and more moral than just killing them? Dropping a TL7-8 person off in a TL4 world and expecting them to survive is pretty large leap of faith. Even if you can get back with projector assistance, how would you be sure you'd ever find a survivor? It's murder, just an inhumane method of murder.

Nothing about the description of Coventry suggests that it is particularly dangerous. It's a semi-developed colony with a substantial population of colonists rescued from various catastrophes with plenty of jobs and undeveloped land decribed as "pastoral" and provided with state-of-the-art medical care for Homeline. Which means Homeline actually has at least one facility/hospital there to process and place new arrivals. It's not a wonderful place for people who dislike low tech physical labour since that's what most of the work is, but it's not a death sentence.

And sometimes, the preferred method isn't available or tenable.

Sometimes, yes. My point is...not usually. It isn't a routine thing when they just murder a bunch of outtimers to cover the secret and that's partly because they have qualms about that approach and but also because on a practical level it's a method that is likely to cause more risk to the Secret than it eliminates.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

On a happier note about Coventry, it is filled with many of the greatest minds ever to turn their thoughts towards cross-world travel, many of them from directions Infinity has never even considered. Sure, leaving is impossible using Infinity's technology, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Locking up the escape artists... my headcannon is that this is now the home base of a significant third crosstime faction, putting on a facade for the benefit of their "captors".

I didn't want to go there yet, but yes. Spot on.

Assuming that the criminal factions don't kill the scientists off, they're quite likely to develop a new form of transdimensional travel. They're brilliant and highly motivated, both to return home and to inflict revenge on the totalitarian regime that stranded them here.

Knowing that it's possible would boost the scientists' will. Being brilliant, they'd quickly find a solution, and implement it. Not taking revenge would probably require the brains of a highly-organized mastermind.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's a misuse of the fallacy. I am not arguing that your argument is illogical because of your personal qualities. I'm arguing that it wasn't based on "facts"...which is to say canon.

Which it is, and I cited them.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Assuming she says "yes" to the job offer...yes they will. (Provided that the interview indicates that she's willing to sign on.). She's a valuable recruit and they'd go out of their way to make it worth her while to sign on.

Can you cite any example where that's listed as a possibility. I've given you several examples of the opposite being true.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Well actually given that she disappeared in the explosion it seems likely that they'd assume she was dead unless they were really careful checking the DNA of the body parts.

This is quite correct, I realized I should have said "Dead" not "missing."

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But apart from that, it's hardly necessary for them to be abducted if the husband wants to be reunited with her. They could probably get his full cooperation in announcing he was moving away to a new job and a new life. Or if they can come up with a suitable cover story, she could just go home. She's a world-jumper. That makes commutes easy.

But, only if she's willing to do things their way. If they knew she worked for her world's UN, they wouldn't give her the opportunity. They're too hung up on The Secret.

Can they know that she's not going to spill the beans to her employer in her world (the IST UN)? She'll probably be subject to a mind-scan to ensure she's not under duress (which she is) or going to spill any UN secrets (which she likely has).

Nothing in the canon about Infinity shows that they would ever allow her to try to return to her old life. She knows The Secret, and must be controlled or killed.

They would, happily (eagerly?), abduct her husband to keep on Homeline--that would ensure her cooperation. She knows that, if she doesn't toe-the-line, they can have him dumped on Coventry, or Vanished, or just plain killed.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's true. They aren't. If she rejects their recruitment offers, then they will try to imprison her. Their canonical approach is NOT to shoot her. It's to strand her in Conventry. She may have a cosmic world-jumper ability that Coventry can't stop but they don't know that. All that means is that she'll successfully escape. But they will do their best to convince her to sign on, providing all reasonable incentives.

Exactly. But, if she's not willing to help them, because she finds them and their methods offensive, they'll drop her on Coventry. Not because she's committed a crime, but because she's not playing their game. Which to them, is a crime.

They are morally reprehensible. They're deliberately abducting and stranding people because they feel they are the only ones with the right to the knowledge those people have.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Nothing about the description of Coventry suggests that it is particularly dangerous.

Only that it's TL4, inhabited by thought criminals and actual criminals. No modern amenities or luxuries.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It's a semi-developed colony with a substantial population of colonists rescued from various catastrophes with plenty of jobs and undeveloped land decribed as "pastoral" and provided with state-of-the-art medical care for Homeline.

And whose doing the describing? Homeline. Untrustworthy narrator.

And, it says they have "some" not "many" or "substantial" colonists. This also assumes that the colonists want to put up with the criminal elements. That is not likely.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Which means Homeline actually has at least one facility/hospital there to process and place new arrivals. It's not a wonderful place for people who dislike low tech physical labour since that's what most of the work is, but it's not a death sentence.

That's an assumption that is not supported in canon. Many TL 8 people would not be able to survive in a TL4 world. Especially not TL8 scientists.

Having a TL8 hospital would be a target for insurrection. They wouldn't bother making it or staffing it. It's just easier to drop medicine and gear at a known pick-up point, and making the locals deal with it.

Which is not something they'd tell anyone.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Sometimes, yes. My point is...not usually. It isn't a routine thing when they just murder a bunch of outtimers to cover the secret and that's partly because they have qualms about that approach and but also because on a practical level it's a method that is likely to cause more risk to the Secret than it eliminates.

And, I strongly disagree that it provides any risk to the Secret. Again, the Secret has to be known before a rational mind can attribute the crime to it.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

On a happier note about Coventry, it is filled with many of the greatest minds ever to turn their thoughts towards cross-world travel, many of them from directions Infinity has never even considered. Sure, leaving is impossible using Infinity's technology, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Locking up the escape artists... my headcannon is that this is now the home base of a significant third crosstime faction, putting on a facade for the benefit of their "captors".

That one Jumper that won't play ball, but happens to have a Cosmic enhancement allowing it to work there anyway acts as a catalyst for the rebellion.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That's true. They aren't. If she rejects their recruitment offers, then they will try to imprison her. Their canonical approach is NOT to shoot her. It's to strand her in Conventry. She may have a cosmic world-jumper ability that Coventry can't stop but they don't know that. All that means is that she'll successfully escape. But they will do their best to convince her to sign on, providing all reasonable incentives.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Exactly. But, if she's not willing to help them, because she finds them and their methods offensive, they'll drop her on Coventry. Not because she's committed a crime, but because she's not playing their game. Which to them, is a crime.

They are morally reprehensible. They're deliberately abducting and stranding people because they feel they are the only ones with the right to the knowledge those people have.

Actually, doing a little more digging, that's not correct:

Originally Posted by Infinite Worlds, pg 13

Security Division runs the “prison parallel” Coventry (p. B524), as well as a few even more obscure detention facilities on remote worlds.

(typo from book)

So, not everyone goes to Coventry. Hmm. It seems more likely Jillian would be sent somewhere else. Somewhere less . . . pastoral.

[Flyndaran]

I thought that Coventry is the place that doesn't allow World Jumping or Conveyers, only Projectors. That makes it the only worldline to send cross-time researchers and Jumpers.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I thought that Coventry is the place that doesn't allow World Jumping or Conveyers, only Projectors. That makes it the only worldline to send cross-time researchers and Jumpers.

I believe its also where homeline organized crime and world-jumping criminals end up. You can launch a conveyor from anywhere in Q5 and hit a homeline prison. You need a projector to get to Coventry. And while there are a number of rouge conveyors, its stated that Infinity Inc. still has a firm grasp on projectors.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I thought that Coventry is the place that doesn't allow World Jumping or Conveyers, only Projectors. That makes it the only worldline to send cross-time researchers and Jumpers.

Originally Posted by ericthered

I believe its also where homeline organized crime and world-jumping criminals end up. You can launch a conveyor from anywhere in Q5 and hit a homeline prison. You need a projector to get to Coventry. And while there are a number of rouge conveyors, its stated that Infinity Inc. still has a firm grasp on conveyors.

Yes, to both. The information is in Campaigns in the "Keeping the Secret" box on page 540.

However, depending on their method, they might be controllable in another parallel. Somewhere less pleasant.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by ericthered

its stated that Infinity Inc. still has a firm grasp on conveyors.

I think you mean "projectors."