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Old 06-28-2022, 09:30 PM   #1
oneofmanynameless
 
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Default Powers that require maintenance

In Powers it says you could have Maintenance as a required disad for your power, in which case all abilities require their own maintenance! Would you consider it a feature to just use the normal required disad rules for Maintenance as part of your power mod, where your whole power requires one maintenance period (maybe the whole power is granted by the same gadget or something) and you loose the whole power if you don't do the maintenance? Would you half the value? Or change it some other way?
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Old 06-28-2022, 10:55 PM   #2
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

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Originally Posted by oneofmanynameless View Post
In Powers it says you could have Maintenance as a required disad for your power, in which case all abilities require their own maintenance! Would you consider it a feature to just use the normal required disad rules for Maintenance as part of your power mod, where your whole power requires one maintenance period (maybe the whole power is granted by the same gadget or something) and you loose the whole power if you don't do the maintenance? Would you half the value? Or change it some other way?
The normal disadvantage rules for Maintenance as a Temporary Disadvantage aren't particularly limiting, since needing a HT roll to avoid falling apart but only having that ticker for brief moments... it's kind of like Temporary Disadvantage (Short Lifespan) for something like Regeneration: Fast. If you regen incredibly fast you could turn it off soon and not age much at all.
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Old 06-29-2022, 01:49 PM   #3
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

This is a bit convoluted.

Powers has two instances that refer to Maintenance on an Advantage.

On page 102, I don't think it is saying to use actual Maintenance, but just to calculate the value by reference to Maintenance.

On page 116, it says to use Maintenance as a Temporary Disad Modifier on an Advantage, but it give no guidance on how to apply the missed Maintenance consequences to an Advantage rather than the character. It would be weird to have Absolute Direction (Maintenance -20%) [4] impose the kind of consequences that the Maintenance (2 people, daily) [-20] disad would impose on a character. (Also the whole idea of a Temporary Disad on a full-time Advantage seems kind of odd.)

All in all, I think this use of Maintenance compels the GM to make a house rule for it to make any sense.
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Old 06-29-2022, 02:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

Oof, so, there are a lot of Limitations where applying them to individual Advantages and applying them to a metatrait of said Advantages results in the same end cost, but markedly different results. Arguably, the fair way to price the difference would be as follows... but it's a bit complicated.

If it's just one instance of Maintenance that keeps everything going (the "apply to a metatrait" option), just use the pricing as-is.

If each individual ability requires Maintenance, what that means is that keeping all the abilities going requires a more extensive version of the Maintenance Limitation (basically, more time spent on it). But you have the option to take less time and only maintain one ability, keeping it available. In other words, you basically have an Either/Or situation - Either you take the time to maintain all abilities, Or you only take the time to maintain one or two and lose access to the others. "Losing access to the others" could be built as a Temporary Disadvantage, but my inclination would be to use Alternate Abilities instead.

As a basic example, lets say you've got 3 abilities, each worth a base of [50]. Just throwing numbers out there, let's say that each has a -10% Maintenance, but the Maintenance time for all three together would be worth -20%. So, we build each with Maintenance -10%, for [45] each. With Maintenance -20%, they'd instead be worth [40] each, while with Alternate Abilities they'd be worth [45] for the first, [9] each for the other two.

So, we start with an overall metatrait worth [150], with Maintenance -10% dropping that to [135]. Maintenance -20% would drop it to [120], for a total of -20% - net -10% compared to just Maintenance -10%. AA would make it instead [63], which compared to the base [150] is a -58% Limitation - net -48% compared to just Maintenance -10%. Either/Or Limitations multiply the values together, so we've got -(0.1*0.48=)4.8%, which I'd be comfortable rounding to -5%. So, total Limitations - including Maintenance -10% and the Either/Or Limitation of (Increased Maintenance -10% or Alternate Abilities -48%) -5% - is -15%, for end cost of [127.5], rounded up to [128]. Technically, the fact you can actually maintain two of them instead of only one or three would call for some sort of nested AA scheme, but I think simply allowing it with this build would be acceptable.

... I told you it was a bit complicated.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
The normal disadvantage rules for Maintenance as a Temporary Disadvantage aren't particularly limiting, since needing a HT roll to avoid falling apart but only having that ticker for brief moments... it's kind of like Temporary Disadvantage (Short Lifespan) for something like Regeneration: Fast. If you regen incredibly fast you could turn it off soon and not age much at all.
Maintenance is used as the "Shutdown" variant of Temporary Disadvantage - it's not that the character starts to fall apart if the ability isn't maintained, but rather the ability is temporarily unavailable if it isn't maintained.
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Old 06-29-2022, 02:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

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Maintenance is used as the "Shutdown" variant of Temporary Disadvantage - it's not that the character starts to fall apart if the ability isn't maintained, but rather the ability is temporarily unavailable if it isn't maintained.
Where does it say that?
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Old 06-29-2022, 03:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

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Where does it say that?
B46, under Cybernetics, mentions Electrical and Maintenance as appropriate Temporary Disadvantages, and further states they apply to the implant, not the character. I believe when the Shutdown variant of Temporary Disadvantage was formally described (I forget if that was in Powers or Power Ups 8: Limitations... or maybe even Bio Tech), Maintenance was given as an example. I suppose you could do something weird like tracking the HT of your cybernetic powers separately, with them slowly breaking down as you skip maintenance cycles, but given your powers generally don't make HT checks I'm not sure this would really be appropriate.
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Old 06-29-2022, 07:03 PM   #7
oneofmanynameless
 
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
B46, under Cybernetics, mentions Electrical and Maintenance as appropriate Temporary Disadvantages, and further states they apply to the implant, not the character. I believe when the Shutdown variant of Temporary Disadvantage was formally described (I forget if that was in Powers or Power Ups 8: Limitations... or maybe even Bio Tech), Maintenance was given as an example. I suppose you could do something weird like tracking the HT of your cybernetic powers separately, with them slowly breaking down as you skip maintenance cycles, but given your powers generally don't make HT checks I'm not sure this would really be appropriate.
Unless combined with gadget limitations and treated like an aging piece of gear, which was definitely one of the use scenarios that I was thinking about that lead to wondering about the use of maintenance.

But yes. I generally agree that in many cases, unless the power has a reason to have it's own HT that could degrade and that you care about (which would be a major campaign mechanic) it should generally be treated as a shutdown.
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Old 06-29-2022, 09:03 PM   #8
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

Required Disadvantage means the ability shuts off if you don't fulfill the disadvantage (which you have in full) this is different from Temporary Disadvantage which gives you this Disadvantage while the ability is active, or shuts the ability down if the disadvantage would apply.

If you have Maintenance and also had several abilities with Required Disadvantage (Maintenance), and you miss Maintenance, you both suffer the effects of missing Maintenance and also lose use of those abilities. You don't have to do any additional maintenance per ability, just that of your Maintenance disadvantage.
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Old 06-29-2022, 11:38 PM   #9
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
B46, under Cybernetics, mentions Electrical and Maintenance as appropriate Temporary Disadvantages, and further states they apply to the implant, not the character. I believe when the Shutdown variant of Temporary Disadvantage was formally described (I forget if that was in Powers or Power Ups 8: Limitations... or maybe even Bio Tech), Maintenance was given as an example. I suppose you could do something weird like tracking the HT of your cybernetic powers separately, with them slowly breaking down as you skip maintenance cycles, but given your powers generally don't make HT checks I'm not sure this would really be appropriate.
I found Shutdown in PU8-Limitations but nowhere else. With makes is questionable how Powers intended it to work.
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Old 06-30-2022, 07:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Powers that require maintenance

just the ability shutting down instead of all of you shutting down is a pretty good deal in most cases, I don't know why it's a full-price discount
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