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06-28-2021, 04:03 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Sensible negotiations
Unless I'm mistaken, negotiating price as per SE26 incentivises PCs to make ridiculous offers to make the counterpart adjust their price by as much as possible.
For example, let's say I have an item worth $200, initial offer from a merchnant may be (after a reaction roll) $75 and acceptable $100. However, since his response will depend on the PCs answer, the best answer will be M, where M is a sufficiently large number (ie M ≫ $200), because the size of the next price change by the merchant will be a percentage of that. If M is large enough, it's possible to, say, lower M to half it's value, because that will make the NPC hit it's limited ceiling for what he will pay. That feels a bit cheap hack... I know that haggling cultures in particular are prone to making outrageous offers, but is there an easy way around this? If the offer is outragously large, then shouldn't the response be outrageosly small? I could, of course, simply fiat the whole encounter an declare that "the merchant is unwilling to do business with you", but are there other options of tweaking the rules and still have a smooth bargaining process? |
06-28-2021, 05:59 AM | #2 |
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
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Re: Sensible negotiations
Yes. You are the GM. The rules are guidelines but you have the authority to override what the rules say when the rules don't make sense and sometimes they don't. Writing rules to handle every conceivable possibility is beyond the skill of mere mortals even the great writers at SJ Games.
If they offer something that you think is insultingly off the charts, just have the merchant tell them they should move along as he has serious business to transact and these fools are in his way. |
06-28-2021, 06:46 AM | #3 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: Sensible negotiations
I'd have to look at the Social Engineering, but you mention a ceiling for what the NPC is willing to pay. I'd suggest a mechanic by which countering with too high* of an offer risks insulting the NPC, reducing the ceiling and having the NPC respond with only a modest boost to their initial offer, if any boost at all. If the ceiling gets dropped lower than what the NPC has already offered, either the NPC walks away from the deal or actually counters with their ceiling "Take it or leave it." As to the mechanic itself... I'm not certain how it should be constructed.
*This would be expressed as some multiple of the item's "true" value, but should have some variability to it.
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GURPS Overhaul |
06-28-2021, 10:50 AM | #4 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Sensible negotiations
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06-28-2021, 12:35 PM | #5 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Sensible negotiations
Wait, what? The GM isn't a computer that you found a glitch in the code allowing you to dupe an NPC into overpaying for an item. The purpose of the opposed Merchant roll and the half-price for resale option is to streamline the obviously complex discussions that occur when negotiating a price. The percentages assume that the starting point for the item's value is within a sane (or pre-determined) range. I guess the "glitch" is based on the assumption that the price/value for an item is what the seller (i.e. PC) says it is when offering it for sale?
So yeah, you walk into the store with a $200 widget and tell the shopkeeper "Hey, this is a $2000 widget, want to take it off my hands for $1000?" the shopkeeper will look at you, look at the widget, and say "get lost". Or rather, that's the sane GM's response followed by a good laugh and then a request to quit wasting time trying to scam shopkeepers or at least come up with a better (i.e. non-meta) con. For one, an item's value is independent of what the PC says it is (from a metagame standpoint) and a given shopkeeper would probably have an (in game) idea of what a widget is worth which ought to disarm the truly outlandish propositions. Then, if you have a superb reaction roll then he'll give you a great deal relative to that widget because you're a hoopy frood, but not based on the PC quoting some absurdly high value. |
06-28-2021, 01:08 PM | #6 |
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
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Re: Sensible negotiations
I think the previous poster is right in that there needs to be a market value for something that is being bought and sold. That market value should dictate the direction of negotiations. With good skill you might get some percent over market value but you won't get some outrageous amount miles above market value.
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06-30-2021, 11:57 PM | #7 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Sensible negotiations
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That’s what I’m trying to emulate: haggling situations with high stakes and high uncertainty. Yes, I know that unknown goods give -3 to reactions, and yes, I understand – even agree with most of – the comments in this thread. If GM fiat is the best solution, so be it. Perhaps it’s best to “throw [RAW] away”, anyway, as per SE73, but I still want to understand the RAW to explore possibilities. I find it preferable to have robust rules to fall back on, allowing the GM (me) to focus on portraying the interactions (especially in what I want to achieve here). |
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07-01-2021, 05:10 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Eastern Kentucky
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Re: Sensible negotiations
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Now given the initial reaction roll was affected but you are finely parsing the rules after that and not seeing a satisfactory result, I think you as GM just applying the "principles" from the rule would be fine. Never let a bunch of rules lawyers try to dictate the reality of your campaign. I tell my players up front that anything relating to rules that their "characters" know are just the best guesstimates about how things work. So if they see something right before their eyes that seems to contradict their understanding of the way the world works, like good scientists they should reevaluate based on new observation data. |
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07-02-2021, 08:51 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Sensible negotiations
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Anyway, the notion of an outrageous counterproposal to a merchant's offer is simply a refusal to negotiate. That's where the GM critical thinking skills are so key because it's important to read that kind of situation and react appropriately which is to have the merchant go to a fixed price (not necessarily their limits or 'best price', they are likely insulted after all) and not move off of it. This yahoo isn't interested in playing, or doesn't know how to play the negotiation game so they get the sticker price. To go immediately to the edge case and use it to shortcut the spirit of the negotiation sequence, then don't use that rule and go with a straightforward quick contest of merchant rolls and call it a day. Whatever doodad there is has a value determined by the GM, maybe only the players know its true worth and are lowballing (cool!), or know it's worth way more than it looks like and need to convince that merchant (fun!), and if everyone is on the level then pay attention to the spirit of the rules or don't use them if you're going to intentionally break them. @Varyon, yeah the reaction chart has been discussed before as having some odd results out on the edges. But it's kinda fun to justify post-roll how that bad of a result came about. I could totally see the '0' result as the PC's roll into a shop to buy a $2k necklace for a buck. PC's not seeing that another customer is there, who's delicate negotiations have been interrupted, the merchant has now been insulted in front of a valued customer and possibly ruined an important deal. Word might spread that merchant is a chump who can't negotiate. In that ask for a buck, they also used (un)intentionally a slur, profanity, or insult at the merchant and/or their stock. Banned from the shop! |
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06-28-2021, 11:04 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: Sensible negotiations
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If a merchant accepts an outrageously low offer there should be strings attached. For example, the item might have been sold by a disgruntled employee to spite their boss, triggering attempts by the item's rightful owner to recover it. Or, the item is actually defective, radioactive, stolen, or otherwise "too hot to handle." Alternately, since haggling depends on personal relations and reciprocity, the sale might come with additional non-financial obligations. "I'll give you a great deal this time, but you owe me one." or "I'll give you a great deal, but I want you to do me a favor." If a NPC merchant accepts an outrageously low offer due to the PC's reaction bonuses, that implies that the merchant gets some non-financial benefit from the sale. Expect to see advertising mentioning the character's name ("Come to Tawfeek's Armoury, where Raslan the Mighty buys his swords!") and/or rumors which aid the merchant's business ("I heard that Tawfeek is under Raslan the Mighty's personal protection. Let's not shake him down for protection money this month."). Characters might also have to put up with a certain amount of fanboy/creep behavior on the part of the merchant and their staff, posing for pictures, signing autographs, and other types of "fan service." This might take extra time or bring extra attention if the character wishes to get the full discount. ("Sorry I'm late. I got a fantastic price on the ceremonial candles you wanted, but it took me two hours before the chandler stopped asking me questions about the time we were marooned on the Isle of Dread.") |
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bargaining, merchant, negotiations, social engineering |
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