Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-09-2023, 07:07 AM   #21
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Some further thoughts, now that I'm not longer about to head out the door.

As others have noted, the farmers are ridiculously frail. Also, the GM apparently doesn't understand the Injury rules if he/she ruled the farmer who got shield-rushed for 6 HP Injury died - even with the HP of a small child (5), that puts the farmer at -1 HP, a full 4 HP away from needing to make a Death Check. In a gritty game, the farmer may be suffering from internal bleeding that can kill him if left untreated, but the fight will be over long before that happens (and in a gritty game, a human farmer isn't going to have only 5 HP). If you guys are playing with houserules that mooks die at 0 HP, this would be fine... but then your Paladin shouldn't be penalized for having killed someone (because the GM has made OpFor far too frail).

The interpretation of CHI sounds more like a simple Code of Honor, and I'd suggest changing it to that. Note it doesn't sound like the Paladin has violated this code - he struck an armed combatant, and the combatant died from the wounds thus inflicted. Easy enough.

That dwarf is basically an unplayable character outside of a dungeon. Belkar, at least prior to him experiencing character development ("Evolve or die"), certainly was a terror... but he knew how to restrict his actions such that he was generally unlikely to be caught (also, he had a well-developed - if twisted - sense of humor, rather than being humorless). Also I think he knew that if he crossed the line too far, Roy would absolutely wreck him, and that doesn't seem to be the case here. This dwarf is a ticking time bomb (that sounds like it's already gone off a few times) that should typically be prevented by the party from entering the city gates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
So they figure they'll respond with improvised weapons to attack the guys in full armor and carrying real weapons? I'm not seeing much realistic appreciation for violence here. People with a realistic appreciation for violence should know better than to try to start fights with members of an unknown heavily armed group - and no they don't get to claim mocking heavily armed strangers doesn't constitute trying to start a fight, it is a clearly forseeable risk, especially for anybody who regularly patronizes a seedy tavern that lets people sit around armed.
In many ways, the farmers are getting what's coming to them (flinging racial slurs and epithets at a heavily-armed dwarf beside an even more heavily-armed-and-armored human, then escalating to pulling out weapons and trying to kill them after the dwarf attacks one and the human clumsily tries to calm things down), although the local law may well not see it that way.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 07:38 AM   #22
Jhanis
 
Join Date: May 2022
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Some further thoughts, now that I'm not longer about to head out the door.

As others have noted, the farmers are ridiculously frail. Also, the GM apparently doesn't understand the Injury rules if he/she ruled the farmer who got shield-rushed for 6 HP Injury died - even with the HP of a small child (5), that puts the farmer at -1 HP, a full 4 HP away from needing to make a Death Check. In a gritty game, the farmer may be suffering from internal bleeding that can kill him if left untreated, but the fight will be over long before that happens (and in a gritty game, a human farmer isn't going to have only 5 HP). If you guys are playing with houserules that mooks die at 0 HP, this would be fine... but then your Paladin shouldn't be penalized for having killed someone (because the GM has made OpFor far too frail).

The interpretation of CHI sounds more like a simple Code of Honor, and I'd suggest changing it to that. Note it doesn't sound like the Paladin has violated this code - he struck an armed combatant, and the combatant died from the wounds thus inflicted. Easy enough.

That dwarf is basically an unplayable character outside of a dungeon. Belkar, at least prior to him experiencing character development ("Evolve or die"), certainly was a terror... but he knew how to restrict his actions such that he was generally unlikely to be caught (also, he had a well-developed - if twisted - sense of humor, rather than being humorless). Also I think he knew that if he crossed the line too far, Roy would absolutely wreck him, and that doesn't seem to be the case here. This dwarf is a ticking time bomb (that sounds like it's already gone off a few times) that should typically be prevented by the party from entering the city gates.



In many ways, the farmers are getting what's coming to them (flinging racial slurs and epithets at a heavily-armed dwarf beside an even more heavily-armed-and-armored human, then escalating to pulling out weapons and trying to kill them after the dwarf attacks one and the human clumsily tries to calm things down), although the local law may well not see it that way.
Yeah, we've never played the HT death rolls before, but now that you mention it I actually want to. Not just for PCs but also for the NPCs, so I can decide if I want to help them or not.

My DM often likes to "Simplify" the rules, because he prefers story to the mechanics of the game. Me, I love mechanics and the framework. It gives my characters limitations and allows me to develop who they are based on that. (That said, making a Paladin was a total pain. You need ST, obviously for hitting and tanking. DX for skills. But also IQ for spells. But the DM has let me subsitute Will instead of IQ, because his spells are very limited and are based on his faith, not his intelligence. Might turn out to be broken AF, but we will see.)

Also, we don't have to worry too much about the dwarf. This is intended as a one shot to introduce the new player and let me get to grips with how a good character is played. So it's basically a big dungeon crawl, not a long campagin.

Our next game is a full on swords and sorcery campaign, with 6 players (That's going to be hard) and we are playing good characters. Up until this point we've always played complete gits that would rather just stab the store clerk and steal the item he was selling. So learning how to subdue an opponent, rather than outright killing them, is a useful lesson.
Jhanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 08:24 AM   #23
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

If your GM treats 0 HP as "Dead," you're going to have a rather hard time subduing foes without killing them. You'll largely be restricted to grappling (either immobilizing the foe but also effectively removing yourself from combat in the process, or getting them into a blood choke and hoping they pass out before they reach HP 0), knockout poisons of various flavors, and appropriate spells/Afflictions (if you can get them). Hitting them until they stop fighting back is going to wind up with everyone you face being dead. Against a healthy foe (that is, one who hasn't already suffered some Injury), you can also opt to aim for the leg (leg joint - that is, knee - if you have Martial Arts), as you can't deal more than a touch over 50% of their HP to that leg, and doing so will cripple it, making them much easier to immobilize (they're stuck crawling anywhere they go).

You'll definitely want to talk to the GM about how such will be handled. Honestly, if you want to simplify things but also want "knocking them out" to be an option, having mooks go unconscious at 0 HP and die at -1xHP (that is, they always fail the appropriate HT rolls) would work alright. Better yet, have them fall unconscious at 0 HP and require nothing more than basic First Aid to keep alive (failure to care for their wounds may mean death by exsanguination, infection, or similar), be severely wounded at -1xHP (basic First Aid can only stabilize them, they need magical/alchemical healing to get them above -1xHP to survive; note this is essentially a less-harsh variant of Mortal Wounds), and die outright at -2xHP.

You could also import Subdual Damage from That Other Game. This calls for using a inefficient attack method (bare-handed unarmed strikes, specific relatively-weak nonlethal weapons like saps, or purposefully striking with a normally-lethal weapon in a nonlethal manner - might as well use the same -4 to hit as in TOG), and such damage should heal rapidly. For my Limit Breakers, I had the nonlethal mode of their weapons deal damage that healed at a rate of 1 HP per minute, but here I think the same rate as TOG - 1 HP per hour - should work fine. Again, as with TOG, any effect that heals HP (First Aid, healing spells/potion, Regeneration, etc) would automatically heal 1 HP Subdual Damage for every 1 HP of Lethal Damage it heals (and a character who has only suffered Subdual Damage - or only has Subdual Damage left after all their Lethal Damage has been healed - should arguably have their Subdual Damage healed at twice the normal rate - 2 HP for every 1 HP worth of healing).

As for effect, add any Subdual Damage the character has suffered to any Lethal Damage, and use that sum for determining if the character is at risk of falling unconscious, but use only Lethal Damage for determining if the character is at risk of death.

For your Paladin, above, if the GM considers a Shield Rush to be lethal, you could have taken a -4 to hit to deal Subdual Damage instead of Lethal Damage. For a character who frequently makes use of this, you could have a Technique, Merciful Strike - a Hard Technique that defaults to Prerequisite-4 and lets you buy off the penalty (Prerequisite here should be any combat skill). Alternatively (or additionally), a variant of Blessed - Blessed (Merciful) - could let you spend 1 FP to activate it, then for the next 3d seconds all of your attacks deal Subdual Damage, at no penalty. I'd eyeball that as worth [5], but could probably be convinced to boost it to [10].
__________________
GURPS Overhaul

Last edited by Varyon; 01-09-2023 at 08:27 AM.
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 09:54 AM   #24
Jhanis
 
Join Date: May 2022
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If your GM treats 0 HP as "Dead," you're going to have a rather hard time subduing foes without killing them. You'll largely be restricted to grappling (either immobilizing the foe but also effectively removing yourself from combat in the process, or getting them into a blood choke and hoping they pass out before they reach HP 0), knockout poisons of various flavors, and appropriate spells/Afflictions (if you can get them). Hitting them until they stop fighting back is going to wind up with everyone you face being dead. Against a healthy foe (that is, one who hasn't already suffered some Injury), you can also opt to aim for the leg (leg joint - that is, knee - if you have Martial Arts), as you can't deal more than a touch over 50% of their HP to that leg, and doing so will cripple it, making them much easier to immobilize (they're stuck crawling anywhere they go).

You'll definitely want to talk to the GM about how such will be handled. Honestly, if you want to simplify things but also want "knocking them out" to be an option, having mooks go unconscious at 0 HP and die at -1xHP (that is, they always fail the appropriate HT rolls) would work alright. Better yet, have them fall unconscious at 0 HP and require nothing more than basic First Aid to keep alive (failure to care for their wounds may mean death by exsanguination, infection, or similar), be severely wounded at -1xHP (basic First Aid can only stabilize them, they need magical/alchemical healing to get them above -1xHP to survive; note this is essentially a less-harsh variant of Mortal Wounds), and die outright at -2xHP.

You could also import Subdual Damage from That Other Game. This calls for using a inefficient attack method (bare-handed unarmed strikes, specific relatively-weak nonlethal weapons like saps, or purposefully striking with a normally-lethal weapon in a nonlethal manner - might as well use the same -4 to hit as in TOG), and such damage should heal rapidly. For my Limit Breakers, I had the nonlethal mode of their weapons deal damage that healed at a rate of 1 HP per minute, but here I think the same rate as TOG - 1 HP per hour - should work fine. Again, as with TOG, any effect that heals HP (First Aid, healing spells/potion, Regeneration, etc) would automatically heal 1 HP Subdual Damage for every 1 HP of Lethal Damage it heals (and a character who has only suffered Subdual Damage - or only has Subdual Damage left after all their Lethal Damage has been healed - should arguably have their Subdual Damage healed at twice the normal rate - 2 HP for every 1 HP worth of healing).

As for effect, add any Subdual Damage the character has suffered to any Lethal Damage, and use that sum for determining if the character is at risk of falling unconscious, but use only Lethal Damage for determining if the character is at risk of death.

For your Paladin, above, if the GM considers a Shield Rush to be lethal, you could have taken a -4 to hit to deal Subdual Damage instead of Lethal Damage. For a character who frequently makes use of this, you could have a Technique, Merciful Strike - a Hard Technique that defaults to Prerequisite-4 and lets you buy off the penalty (Prerequisite here should be any combat skill). Alternatively (or additionally), a variant of Blessed - Blessed (Merciful) - could let you spend 1 FP to activate it, then for the next 3d seconds all of your attacks deal Subdual Damage, at no penalty. I'd eyeball that as worth [5], but could probably be convinced to boost it to [10].
These are all really good ideas, will float them to the DM. I think communication is going to be key, like "I want to shield bash this 5 HP farmer and knock him out. How can I do that?" and suggest some of these ideas if he's open to ideas to keep the game fun.

Because that's what matters at the end of the day, that we all have fun. :D
Jhanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 10:18 AM   #25
RGTraynor
 
RGTraynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pioneer Valley
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Yeah it's entirely possible to interpret it pathologically. Try that at my table and you get the same response you would to interpreting the other meaning of "innocent" as "no human is innocent since they are all guilty of original sin, and therefore my vow doesn't restrain me at all".
Hell yeah. At mine as well. While I don't have "paladins" in my campaign in the D&D sense, I do have some ecclesiastical fighting orders. As with any clergy in my setting, their ability to weasel-word the doctrine of their faiths to suit doing whatever the heck they want without comeback is very limited. Either they're faithful or they aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
In many ways, the farmers are getting what's coming to them (flinging racial slurs and epithets at a heavily-armed dwarf beside an even more heavily-armed-and-armored human, then escalating to pulling out weapons and trying to kill them after the dwarf attacks one and the human clumsily tries to calm things down), although the local law may well not see it that way.
Speaking of comeback ... no, other than in some lawless frontier settlement, or a might-makes-right milieu, I picture the local law's take to be something along the lines of "So let me get this straight, sirrah. Some of our respected local farmers poked good clean fun of the short hairy guy over there, he responded by caving one of their faces in, and in the melee you vagabonds started, another of our respected local farmers is dead. Aye, we're done here."
__________________
My gaming blog: Apotheosis of the Invisible City

"Call me old-fashioned, but after you're dead, I don't think you should be entitled to a Dodge any more." - my wife

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. It's that I disagree with what you're saying.
RGTraynor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 10:53 AM   #26
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Speaking of comeback ... no, other than in some lawless frontier settlement, or a might-makes-right milieu, I picture the local law's take to be something along the lines of "So let me get this straight, sirrah. Some of our respected local farmers poked good clean fun of the short hairy guy over there, he responded by caving one of their faces in, and in the melee you vagabonds started, another of our respected local farmers is dead. Aye, we're done here."
It doesn't have to be near-lawless or might-makes-right (although the fact the paladin wasn't prevented from entering while wearing full armor and carrying a shield indicates they may well be in such an area) for this to be considered a justifiable homicide. If hitting someone with a thrown chair (or similar action) in response to that person directing a racial slur at you is a legally-defensible action (or if it doesn't count as starting the fight, such that the paladin and dwarf would be considered as acting in self-defense, particularly once the farmers pull out weapons), the PC's are likely in the clear. Of course, most lawmen would be inclined to side with locals over outsiders, particularly in a faux-medieval setting, so the PC's should wind up having to pay some wergild at a minimum.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 11:23 AM   #27
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhanis View Post
Also, the plot hook was that at least one would die, so the mayor could give us an ultimatum: "Explore the Abby where every adventurer sent has disappeared, or be executed for murder."
In a situation where a number of mistakes were made deciding to do things this way was the first.

There is no need to "force" PCs into doing what they would have done anyway. Those "farmers" could have just told stories about the abbey and left there "tools" and family heirlooms at home.

It reminds me of a Pathfinder pirate campaign I played in. We were told that it was going to e a pirate campaign so "Arrrr Mateys!" I made a CN pirate and everyone else did the same. We were all looking for a pirate ship to sign on to when we got shanghaied into virtual slavery aboard a (you guessed it)pirate ship.

We looked up the knockout drug that got slipped into our rum later and besides offering a saving throw it cost enough to hire a 1st level pirate for 900 days.

Do not add unnecessary elements to scenarios and certainly don't bend the rules to make things happen some particular way. Your players will be your collaboators. They've come to the table to have an adventure and it should be enough to show them the sign that says "This Way To The Adventure!".
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 12:14 PM   #28
Jhanis
 
Join Date: May 2022
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
In a situation where a number of mistakes were made deciding to do things this way was the first.

There is no need to "force" PCs into doing what they would have done anyway. Those "farmers" could have just told stories about the abbey and left there "tools" and family heirlooms at home.

It reminds me of a Pathfinder pirate campaign I played in. We were told that it was going to e a pirate campaign so "Arrrr Mateys!" I made a CN pirate and everyone else did the same. We were all looking for a pirate ship to sign on to when we got shanghaied into virtual slavery aboard a (you guessed it)pirate ship.

We looked up the knockout drug that got slipped into our rum later and besides offering a saving throw it cost enough to hire a 1st level pirate for 900 days.

Do not add unnecessary elements to scenarios and certainly don't bend the rules to make things happen some particular way. Your players will be your collaboators. They've come to the table to have an adventure and it should be enough to show them the sign that says "This Way To The Adventure!".
Weeeell that might be kinda our fault. I've mentioned before that our group usually plays a bunch of gits? Yeah, it kinda makes it difficult to hook us in.

NPC: "Go kill 12 rats and I will give you this gold."
Party: "Or we could just kill you and take the gold."

We can also take a loooong time to do very little. Haha

We once spent an entire 2hr session, convinced there was a mimic ahead because our wizard sensed life. So we were attacking the open door, casting spells on it, discussing how to know for sure it was a mimic. Eventually, we slowly crept into the room, over the remains of the door and attacked the table, the chair, the chest (It HAD to be the chest, right?!), the bookcase, and the opposite door. Once everything in the room was just splinters and ashes, we slapped the wizard because his spell must have gone haywire. Then we were ambushed by the chandelier.

So, our DM can get a little heavy-handed in "persuading" us. Besides, who in their right mind would investigate an Abbey where about a month ago there was a bad storm and lightning hit the Abbey. Strange colours were seen emanating from inside. The next morning when they went to investigate, they found the Abbot and all the clergy dead. Then the doors slammed shut on the investigating farmers and they were never heard from again. Then over the past few weeks, they have sent at least 4 adventuring parties inside, and every time the doors slammed shut and they disappeared.

Therefore, we have been "asked nicely" to investigate and find out what has happened, fix whatever is broken, and bring peace back to the village.
Jhanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 12:29 PM   #29
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
So they figure they'll respond with improvised weapons to attack the guys in full armor and carrying real weapons?
The description only mentions them standing up from their seats and arming themselves. The first one to close the distance is the paladins: "he rushes two of the farmers".

Doesn't seem like there's any indication they intended to close distance with even the dwarf much less the paladin unless it's the vague "we're in a fight" which didn't actually describe any aggressive acts from these farmers like stepping in striking range of the paladin/dwarf or throwing something at them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I'm not seeing much realistic appreciation for violence here. People with a realistic appreciation for violence should know better than to try to start fights with members of an unknown heavily armed group - and no they don't get to claim mocking heavily armed strangers doesn't constitute trying to start a fight, it is a clearly forseeable risk, especially for anybody who regularly patronizes a seedy tavern that lets people sit around armed.
The idea that insulting someone is "starting a fight" is a hard line I disagree with. It's a slippery slope to where you can't, for example, criticize someone for doing a bad job without them attacking you for criticizing their performance.
__________________
what this forum is
(17 March 2020 forum rules from Hackard)
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2023, 12:51 PM   #30
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Pulling Your Punches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhanis View Post
NPC: "Go kill 12 rats and I will give you this gold."
Party: "Or we could just kill you and take the gold."
What's preventing them from doing the same thing here? "Go investigate this potentially-haunted abbey and we'll give you this gold." "Or we can just kill you and your guards and take the gold." doesn't seem that different from "Go investigate this potentially-haunted abbey and we'll grant you clemency." "Or we can just kill you and your guards and leave of our own accord." Whatever prevents you from taking the "Kill them all" route in the second case (the paladin disagreeing with such a path, the town guard being too formidable to reliably defeat, not wanting to become wanted men with a price on their heads, etc) should be preventing it in the first case as well.

But, yeah, with a group that generally goes off on tangential adventures, won't do things the anticipated way, spends too long on simple things, etc, you either need a GM who can roll with the punches (turning the tangent into the main adventure, react to unanticipated actions, changing the plot so that the characters "wasting" their time attacking doors or whatever winds up actually being worthwhile, etc) or one who can force them back onto the rails. The former is ideal, but not all GM's can manage that (although sometimes you can cheat by just retroactively making their ideas be correct or having whatever they do they wind up with the same result, essentially giving the illusion of choice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
The idea that insulting someone is "starting a fight" is a hard line I disagree with. It's a slippery slope to where you can't, for example, criticize someone for doing a bad job without them attacking you for criticizing their performance.
On the other hand, there have been many times throughout history where sufficiently-serious insults can be legally avenged by killing the offender. This often took the shape of a formal duel (albeit not necessarily to the death), but the precedent exists. I'm not saying such killings were morally justified, but in the cultures where they occurred (and were legal), there's the implication that most people would find such killings to be justified.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul

Last edited by Varyon; 01-09-2023 at 12:55 PM.
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
holding back, mechanics, paladin, pull punches, pull your punches, subduing a foe, tactics

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.