using Counterspell vs Seeker instead of Tracer ?

[Plane]

M167 under Sense Observation notes the possibility of using Counterspell to target a scrying spell you sense targeting an area protected by Sense Observation

Since you don't actually know who cast the scrying spell, or who it was cast on, the normal rules for counterspell (specifying the caster or target) wouldn't seem to apply. Instead there is a -5 penalty for their lack of absence instead of the usular Regular Spell penalties of -1 per yard that Counterspell tends to suffer.

This makes sense for 'ongoing' spells like Trace (gives ongoing idea of a target for an hour) but what about instant ones like Seeker?

M105 sounds like an instantaneous information spell rather than an ongoing effect like Tracer. So once they cast it, they'd already have the information, so Sense Observation enabling counterspell-targeting seems pointless at this point.

Is there some way it could be useful? I thought perhaps if "Reflex" was cast on Counterspell: Seeker" then as soon as an already-active Sense Observation notified you you were being observed, maybe this would allow you to trigger Counterspell:Seeker as an active defense to negate the incoming Seeker so it doesn't succeed?

This would go beyond the realm of what Counterspell could normally do, allowing it to target instant-spells rather than ongoing ones. I'm not sure if that's too powerful though?

[Anthony]

I think the spell you want is ward.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I think the spell you want is ward.

So you figure normally one would not be able to use Ward against Seeker (you don't know you're being sought) but if you had a way to be informed it was in use against you (via Sense Observation) then you could use Ward?

Of course Ward on M122 requires knowing it at skill 12+ whereas I think with Counterspell on M121 doesn't require that, so you might be able to set up Reflex:Counterspell defenses against stuff you don't have much skill in, though they wouldn't be likely to work.

In either case it's a weird thing to RP (especially since Ward can protect others too) like how you know or perceive when someone is being attacked by a spell.

If there's obvious signs someone might be casting a spell (you hear chanting, or see gestures) I guess you could do M102's Identify Spell for "are being cast at the moment" to figure out what they're doing...

But even if you know what kind of spell is being cast (to know what sort of Counterspell or Ward to use, or whether you want to use them) I don't know if it necessarily tells you the target...

The "on or by the subject" options for Identify Spell basically allows for:

"my Identify Spell on my ally tells me some unknown party is in the process of casting Seeker on my ally"

or...

"my Identify Spell on my enemy tells me they are in the process of casting Seeker on an unknown target"

I figure that Sense Observation has some elements of this - it will tell you what spell is targeting something in the area, but unlike Identify Spell, since you never targeted it on a caster or target, you won't have that information regarding it's purpose.

To get that I guess you could do Seeker yourself, like "seek target of Seeker" or "seek user of Seeker" in either case at -5 due to not knowing them?