how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Plane

oh okay didn't know that, is that introduced in New Fantasy Trip or present in original too ?

Same comment on basic vs adjusted ST for carrying stuff was in the first edition ITL, page 36.

[hcobb]

My calculation is that without my fix a starting apprentice with a +2 charm can do a 50 point Aid spell in less than three minutes. Do you really need more ST than that for a single casting?
He fizzles three times a year, which just requires another rest period, so this can be ignored. Otherwise he generates 50 ST every two hours, so 200 ST per day.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by hcobb

My calculation is that without my fix a starting apprentice with a +2 charm can do a 50 point Aid spell in less than three minutes. Do you really need more ST than that for a single casting?
He fizzles three times a year, which just requires another rest period, so this can be ignored. Otherwise he generates 50 ST every two hours, so 200 ST per day.

I'm not seeing how repeatedly casting Aid on yourself increases your overall available mana?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by tomc

I'm not seeing how repeatedly casting Aid on yourself increases your overall available mana?

Rolling a 6 or less to get Charm shifted to a double or triple ST result.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Rolling a 6 or less to get Charm shifted to a double or triple ST result.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Rather than composing a written rule, I'd probably just declare that the wizard abusing this loophole eventually explodes from holding so much power for so long. Anyone willing to wade through the goo might find the +2 charm, unless it was also disintegrated...

Players can read the rules to get an idea of what to expect, but they're not "The Laws of the Universe" written in stone. :)

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by tomc

Players can read the rules to get an idea of what to expect, but they're not "The Laws of the Universe" written in stone. :)

Nicely stated. And exploding wizards to boot! :-)

[Bill_in_IN]

I see it like this.

A wizard casting ST Aid spells on themselves so that it can be spent on casting spells (taking on fatigue) just isn't practical for the reasons previously stated even though Henry seems to have found a loophole. The end result is as what was previously stated. You can achieve the same result by doing nothing. Doing nothing takes less energy and achieve the same result.

Also due to my real life experience with dice, I know that there will be a missed roll that will stop the chain. You never get something for nothing.

This reminds me of a Boolean Algebra problem from my Digital Logic course just over 40 years ago. The professor showed a Boolean equation representing a circuit that appeared to be quite complex, F={expression}. So, by performing reductions on the equation per the properties of Boolean Algebra, he was able to express the same result of the equation as F=1.

So, you could have either built a complex circuit of logic gates with its various timing delays and energy losses or installed one wire with far less timing delays and energy losses.

A wizard chaining ST Aid spells on himself seems like the inefficient complex circuit used in place of a wire. Any ST used toward spell casting pulls energy from the loop and it then starts to unravel. Am I wrong?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Plane

So I guess my question here is if you spend that temporary ST does it have any long-term ramifications?

I don't know what you mean, but I think not.

Originally Posted by Plane

If it didn't then it seems like you could go from 8/8 ST to (2+6)/8 indefinitely by looping the cast, in hopes of eventually getting a double/triple.

Only in theory. It'll be interrupted when you fail.

Originally Posted by Plane

Probably a waste of time for the most part though, and you run the risk of crit fails which end up putting all of that ST investment to waste.

Also when you simply fail, you lose 1 ST, and if you simply fail twice in a row, you'll have lost the 6 ST Aid and 2 ST due to failed casting, and fall unconscious. And also, in order to get a second chance, you're doubling the chances of failure, and spending EVERY turn casting Aid.

Originally Posted by Plane

If a mage was doing this type of thing on the casual it seems like maybe they'd only risk 1 or 2 ST at a time. Maybe something they do to pass the time as they walk at a slow pace through a dungeon, knowing they'll be putting that tempST to immediate use on a convenient Illusion anyway?

You could, but such a mage will be busily casting spells either every turn, or every other turn, which limits them to MA 1, and is going to be much more distracting than not casting and paying attention to their surroundings. The most likely result is that they will end up fatiguing themselves and distracting themselves, but they will have higher physical ST while they do so, and if/when they're lucky, yes they may have some extra ST on hand to cast a spell if they suddenly need to.

Originally Posted by Plane

It seems like you could keep the fatigue-Aid ST in a loop (albeit using up your actions every other second, second which isn't convenient if you want to do other things) until you're ready to use it, possibly building it up (via crit success) or losing it (via crit fails) along the way, so it's a gamble.

Yes, in theory, you might sometimes luck out a bit doing this. But the odds aren't very good, and get worse the longer you have to wait before you need to cast spells.

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm not sure how it works boosting yourself to 14 though, wouldn't you need to pay that 6 ST before gaining the +6 ST ?

No, the effects would happen at the same time, and fatigue doesn't reduce your physical ST.

Originally Posted by Plane

It seems like in GURPS you don't actually pay the spell's energy cost until you actually roll (since the roll determines whether it's 1 or full cost) so it might be interesting to delay paying for it a second or two so this could actually happen.

It's the same in TFT. You roll to cast and then learn what the effects are, including ST cost.

Originally Posted by Plane

Otherwise I think the only way a mage will make themself stronger is if they're fueling the spell by other means like a Manastaff. Probably the tactical way to do ST-boosting and moving stuff is to have a summon/illusion/ally do it.

Usually it's an ally casting Aid on someone else, or a wizard Aiding their own DX or IQ rather than ST, unless they want to boost their physical ST for something. No summons nor illusions have the ability to cast Aid.

[hcobb]

As a partial exception to the above, there is no actual casting roll for a missile spell so you always pay full cost to cast it.


ITL 135: "The full ST is expended, no matter ..."

[Jack O'All Trades]

If you're the Designated Caster for a group of wizards casting Aid, you might want to then Aid yourself to "reset the timer" for the big pool of bonus ST you've been given.