how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

[Plane]

am looking at the spell table trying to figure this out. Let's say you are an IQ 9 ST 8 DX 15 wizard (achievable with 32 point start) who will only fizzle his spells on 16-18 critfails...

Turn 1: spend 6 ST (reducing your ST to 2, just short of unconsciousness) giving yourself +6 to ST for the following 2 turns (temporarily bolstered back up to 8)

Turn 2: unless you critfailed (losing the 6 ST without effect) repeat as above (down to 6 up to 8)

Turn 3: what happens?

Turn 4: what happens?

By 3rd turn the temporary +6 to ST would wear off, so I think you'd be down to ST 2 (not unconscious)

Turn 4 is key though - that's when the +6 to ST from Turn 2 also wears off ... does that take you down to 2-6=-4 ST and kill you?

As to why someone would bother spending 1 ST to give themself +1 ST, it would be fishing for a critical success (a 3 could give +3 to ST, a rolled 4 could give +2 to ST) which could keep you alive longer from injury.

I was actually thinking just to chain up to a higher boost w/ Aid, like if you got +18 to ST from rolling a 3, your ST is temporarily 20 points, making you automatically immune to stuff like Megahex Sleep.

[hcobb]

ITL 18: "If ST is given to another figure (for instance, to allow another wizard to cast a spell with a very high ST cost), that ST must be used within 2 turns, or it is lost"

So using the ST (to cast a spell, in this case Aid) uses up the Aided ST which no longer exists.

[Axly Suregrip]

Plane,
Aid is most often used to give another wizard the ST to cast or maintain a spell he lacks ST to do so. It allows teams of wizards to cast truly powerful spells.

A wizard would never want to cast Aid for ST onto himself as he is trading in permanent ST for ST that will soon be gone. Nothing would be gained. Sometimes, a wizard may want to increase his own DX or IQ. But really Aid is most often used to help others.

BTW, it can also be useful to boost DX of fighters: they have a DX penalty, or they are facing a foe (like snakes) that are hard to hit, or they simply they always have a low DX.

As far as your example goes, each time he casts the AID (after the first) he consumes the previous Aid's ST and he gives himself the ST again thus restarting the timer. As long as he does not miss a roll, he can maintain that ST (which he can also do indefinitely by never casting it in the first place).

[Shostak]

The tricky aspect of Aiding ST is that ST consumed by wounds and by spell casting is treated differently. If one has 5 ST left,is aided up to 10, and then takes 6 wounds, they are left at -1 ST (dead) when Aid expires. Weirdly, if instead they only lost ST due to casting spells, they are left with 4 ST when Aid expires. While this is not explicitly described in the rules, it has been confirmed by the TFT Line Editor.

[tomc]

I would allow a ST 8 wizard to cast a 6pt aid on herself to give her a temporary ST of 14, for the purposes of lifting heavy objects, etc. But it's gone in two turns (10 seconds), and she'll be down to ST 2 for fatigue purposes.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by hcobb

ITL 18: "If ST is given to another figure (for instance, to allow another wizard to cast a spell with a very high ST cost), that ST must be used within 2 turns, or it is lost"

So using the ST (to cast a spell, in this case Aid) uses up the Aided ST which no longer exists.

So I guess my question here is if you spend that temporary ST does it have any long-term ramifications?

If it didn't then it seems like you could go from 8/8 ST to (2+6)/8 indefinitely by looping the cast, in hopes of eventually getting a double/triple.

Probably a waste of time for the most part though, and you run the risk of crit fails which end up putting all of that ST investment to waste.

If a mage was doing this type of thing on the casual it seems like maybe they'd only risk 1 or 2 ST at a time. Maybe something they do to pass the time as they walk at a slow pace through a dungeon, knowing they'll be putting that tempST to immediate use on a convenient Illusion anyway?

Originally Posted by Shostak

The tricky aspect of Aiding ST is that ST consumed by wounds and by spell casting is treated differently. If one has 5 ST left,is aided up to 10, and then takes 6 wounds, they are left at -1 ST (dead) when Aid expires. Weirdly, if instead they only lost ST due to casting spells, they are left with 4 ST when Aid expires. While this is not explicitly described in the rules, it has been confirmed by the TFT Line Editor.

It seems like you could keep the fatigue-Aid ST in a loop (albeit using up your actions every other second, second which isn't convenient if you want to do other things) until you're ready to use it, possibly building it up (via crit success) or losing it (via crit fails) along the way, so it's a gamble.

Originally Posted by tomc

I would allow a ST 8 wizard to cast a 6pt aid on herself to give her a temporary ST of 14, for the purposes of lifting heavy objects, etc. But it's gone in two turns (10 seconds), and she'll be down to ST 2 for fatigue purposes.

I'm not sure how it works boosting yourself to 14 though, wouldn't you need to pay that 6 ST before gaining the +6 ST ?

It seems like in GURPS you don't actually pay the spell's energy cost until you actually roll (since the roll determines whether it's 1 or full cost) so it might be interesting to delay paying for it a second or two so this could actually happen.

Otherwise I think the only way a mage will make themself stronger is if they're fueling the spell by other means like a Manastaff. Probably the tactical way to do ST-boosting and moving stuff is to have a summon/illusion/ally do it.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Plane

I'm not sure how it works boosting yourself to 14 though, wouldn't you need to pay that 6 ST before gaining the +6 ST ?

Here what's happening is you are temporarily boosting you muscle ST to lift something too heavy (or some other benefit of the higher muscle ST) at the cost of being very fatigued going forward. Fatigue doesn't negatively adjust your ST attribute for most purposes. A ST 12 figure still fights normally with a broadsword even if they have 6 points of fatigue for any reason -- that may not be realistic, but it's how TFT works.

[hcobb]

I have a fix to prevent wizards from reaching infinite ST with "lucky" chained Aid.

Well not quite infinite as there is a one in 47 thousand chance of failure. But you can just rest up and try again of course.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#iq9spells

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Plane

It seems like you could keep the fatigue-Aid ST in a loop (albeit using up your actions every other second, second which isn't convenient if you want to do other things) until you're ready to use it, possibly building it up (via crit success) or losing it (via crit fails) along the way, so it's a gamble.

Aid just doesn’t work to give yourself more ST to spend on spells, since you only get the same amount of ST that you spend on the spell (unless you roll a 3 or 4 on the spellcasting roll). If you have a ST 10 character who buffs up to ST 15, they spend 5 ST to do it. Now they have an effective ST of 15 for purposes of lifting/encumbrance, but they still only have 10 ST for spellcasting purposes (10-5+5=10). When Aid expires in a few turns, the character will be back to ST 10 with 5 of that spent on fatigue.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Here what's happening is you are temporarily boosting you muscle ST to lift something too heavy (or some other benefit of the higher muscle ST) at the cost of being very fatigued going forward. Fatigue doesn't negatively adjust your ST attribute for most purposes. A ST 12 figure still fights normally with a broadsword even if they have 6 points of fatigue for any reason -- that may not be realistic, but it's how TFT works.

oh okay didn't know that, is that introduced in New Fantasy Trip or present in original too ?