Damage Resistance: How Noticeable Is It By Default

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What's the difference in utility between being able to see that a person has DR or not being able to see it when the DR is 1?

Probably not much, but then nobody is suggesting it is much in that case. I'd suggest paying 1 point to hide it. Anthony's latest suggestion might call for taking a [-2] Disadvantage if it isn't hidden.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

For that matter if the DR is 10...is it a good thing or a bad thing when you can see "he has DR"?

Being obviously armored can be useful to deter attacks or sometimes to intimidate. But with invisible DR you can still get that part of the time by making a demonstration of strength.

Meanwhile, hidden DR gives you an extra layer of surprise when violence breaks out and you've been underestimated. And allows you to look less threatening to people who are making that assessment based on your apparent capabilities. That sounds like a substantially more beneficial bargain.

[Otaku]

Much as how having DR can have drawbacks like interfering when you need to take damage or receive an Affliction, the inability of others to perceive your DR may not always be beneficial. For example, if you wish to intimidate via it, you'll have to have demonstrate it in action. Damage Resistance that is not readily perceived means your opponent has to know it is there to properly respond, and depending on the specifics, even knowing about it may not let you do much about it, aside from knowing you need to "hit harder".

The specifics of the setting, the genre, maybe even of that adventure will dictate how much DR matters in general, as well as how much it matters whether someone can easily tell by looking at you that the DR is there, can tell with an examination, or cannot tell except by trying to do damage and noting how it does not succeed. If you're taking an amount where it won't matter, isn't that left to the GM's prerogative to let the player know they're "wasting" points, and the player to decide if that matters to them?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Probably not much, but then nobody is suggesting it is much in that case. I'd suggest paying 1 point to hide it. Anthony's latest suggestion might call for taking a [-2] Disadvantage if it isn't hidden.

Being obviously armored can be useful to deter attacks or sometimes to intimidate. But with invisible DR you can still get that part of the time by making a demonstration of strength.

Meanwhile, hidden DR gives you an extra layer of surprise when violence breaks out and you've been underestimated. And allows you to look less threatening to people who are making that assessment based on your apparent capabilities. That sounds like a substantially more beneficial bargain.

Should then the mere possession of any combat useful advantage be visible by default regardless of whether you are using it?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Should then the mere possession of any combat useful advantage be visible by default regardless of whether you are using it?

No, many Advantages (combat-useful or not) represent things that don't have any visible manifestation. Combat Reflexes, for instance, is an internal, mental advantage. It might be possible to predict that someone has it by observation of how they move and behave (that happens fairly often in fiction anyway) but the trait certainly doesn't have an obtrusive physical presence in any normal situation. (Though in videogame or similar contexts you might have distinctive glowing anatomy telegraphing such things. It does happen. I consider it a weird fringe case though!)

The problem is that some Advantages represent features that are commonly seen in both 'no profile' and 'obvious physical presence' versions. DR, Innate Attack, and Affliction are particularly obvious cases, where they are used for everything from straight-up armor plate and overt weapon attachments to 'super' (or magical or chi or even 'system' in the litRPG spectrum) invulnerable skin and energy attacks on apparently perfectly normal human bodies.

A number of maybe less-obvious traits can have similar considerations! Some things that look like regular humans are Immune to Metabolic Hazards! Filter Lungs or Sealed may be hidden or may be obvious external filters. Flight (without wings) might be no-profile Superman flight, or it might have an obvious thruster array.

EDIT: And of course for completeness there are traits that almost always represent something immediately obvious, like Extra Arms/Legs/Head/Mouth. Those are probably never used to represent something hidden without throwing on No Signature or Switchable, since being part of your gross anatomy is the core concept of of the trait.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Should then the mere possession of any combat useful advantage be visible by default regardless of whether you are using it?

No, combat useful advantages should be invisible by default unless you are using it.

[kirbwarrior]

So, the way I had been treating DR seems like it was wrong the more I read over this thread (and the last). Some key things I've noticed (not just from here);

Things in roleplaying are hard enough to know what is going on even when you know the numbers. If I punch someone for 3 damage and they have DR2 (tough skin), even though I know I did 1 damage I still think I know less about what that means in GURPS than I do in a real fight. Having DR be obvious once it stops some of my attack is a good thing if nothing else for being able to understand what is happening. Mind, if DR is equal to or greater than the attack, then I'd just say your attack doesn't damage. If a regular human were to punch a steel wall all you'll find out is that it's too hard to punch through.

DR by default does seem to be not known but often other traits (which can be features) that let others know you are 'tough' in some way. Clark Kent doesn't look any different than a human, but it's obvious when your bullet shatters on his eye that bullets don't work. Hulk looks 'tough', but that could be anything from DR to massive ST to just a bucket of HP (such as being a massive marshmallow). The opposite can be true, too; There might be a creature that looks heavily armored and might even look very close to another (say like a crocodile) but on closer look by a biologist could see the DR is 'fake' and attacking it would harm it fine enough. Force Field DR would be the same and it might have a 'impact light' that many movies and games have when struck.

I feel like you could make a concentrate and roll against some skill to 'read' DR and other toughness traits. Someone who has extensive experience with mutants might be able to learn a new mutant's DR without being blindsides by its appearance. Someone who works with animals would be able to tell by 'natural toughness' what a given animal's DR might be.

I feel like Visible -10% would make your armor so obvious that someone can easily tell the amount you have without having to strike. Mind, I can't think of what that would really look like in real life, but in fiction I've seen force shields that literally show 'thickness' in a way that makes it obvious to everyone what level you have (combined with Variable). Force Fields might have more options with Visible with -10% being enough to make it clear there is a 'shield' around you and -20% letting people know the amount of DR.

On the other end of the spectrum, Low/No Signature could lessen knowing about how much DR someone has... But I'd personally not allow it under normal circumstances. If you strike a huge monster for 70 damage and you find out it has 50 DR and the 20 leftover damage doesn't seem to affect it at all, you don't know what that 20 damage really did. Further taking away the DR and just saying 'it didn't seem to affect it' feels like it has too little information for the player. However, I do like DR builds that only work against attacks they fully stop. DR10 with Force Field and No Signature but limited only to 10 damage or weaker attacks can be an invisible force (like psychokinesis or luck) where 'weak' attacks just seem to miss.

As for being able to 'use' DR to supplement other effects, that's likely an appearance or action-based thing. For instance, both low appearance and high appearance (with Impressive) help with Intimidation. The Thing might just have Monstrous appearance with it's nice +5 to intimidation adding to his SM (+2?) and getting a bigger bonus (up to +4) for using it right after someone watches bullets bounce of you. That +11 can add to his possible average Will and no skill to bring it up to Will+6 and +9 of that is 'from' his DR.

[AlexanderHowl]

Honestly, I never tell a player how much damage they did, they only know how much damage they rolled. A defender with DR 50 (CWA, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [100] and Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction, /10) [150] will still bleed when hit, it is just that a 70 damage huge piercing attack will only deal 4 HP damage. The attacker does not know that the defender only took 4 HP damage, just that the defender shrugged off a 20d huge piercing attack and just looks angry.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anthony

combat useful advantages should be invisible by default
unless you are using it

Claws?
Strikers?
Extra Arms?

[Otaku]

Reading kirbwarrior's previous post, I figured I should finally take a moment to state what my (incorrect?) understanding of Damage Resistance is in terms of general visibility with no relevant Modifiers, Visible, Low Signature, and No Signature. I'll also err on the side of brevity:

• No Signature DR is difficult to perceive even when it is in use.
• Low Signature DR is only obvious when it is in use. (Superman)
• Baseline DR is somewhat obvious. (Hulk)
• Visible DR is obvious. (Thing)

Were I running a game, I'd actually be using Visible and Low Signature Variable, the latter of which I got from Power-Ups 4 Enhancements, p.15.

Oh, and I'm still operating under the idea that people can have some idea of what should be Damage Resistant, though actual characters probably wouldn't think of it using those terms. That does not mean nothing look like it has more DR than it actually does; if all DR was unmistakable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. ;)

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Reading kirbwarrior's previous post, I figured I should finally take a moment to state what my (incorrect?) understanding of Damage Resistance is in terms of general visibility with no relevant Modifiers, Visible, Low Signature, and No Signature. I'll also err on the side of brevity:

• No Signature DR is difficult to perceive even when it is in use.
• Low Signature DR is only obvious when it is in use. (Superman)
• Baseline DR is somewhat obvious. (Hulk)
• Visible DR is obvious. (Thing)

Were I running a game, I'd actually be using Visible and Low Signature Variable, the latter of which I got from Power-Ups 4 Enhancements, p.15.

Oh, and I'm still operating under the idea that people can have some idea of what should be Damage Resistant, though actual characters probably wouldn't think of it using those terms. That does not mean nothing look like it has more DR than it actually does; if all DR was unmistakable, we wouldn't be having this discussion. ;)

What about the Hulk's appearance makes you think he has DR?