GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Þorkell adn Mr_sandman have outlined the RAW here, but how do you do non shotgun Rof?

If say you shooting a 9mm SMG 3d at some one with a 8 DR vest and say you hit with 9 rounds (an exceptionally high skill roll).

How would you roll the results?

RAW, you'd just roll each of the 9 hits and apply them against DR separately. I could see cause to speed things up by just rolling once and having that roll apply to every single one of the 9 hits, but that does open the door to the possibility of outlier events (for example, you have a ~26% chance of rolling an 8 or lower and doing no damage at all). I could also see cause with 4 or more hits to roll, say, 3 of them, then have the others either be simply 3.5/die or an average of the first three results.

[Black Leviathan]

The dodge also makes a bit of sense when you look at the spreading of those pellets. At 3 yards you're avoiding a blast with only an inch or two of diameter at 20 yards you're avoiding a blast the size of a pie plate.

[CthulhuBob]

Why do you think it's unrealistic to roll damage for each pellet separately and apply DR individually to the damage of each pellet that hits? They are separate projectiles that interact with the armor individually. Shotguns can mess up unarmored targets pretty bad because a well placed shot puts a several pellets into the target, but the pellets are light and lose velocity quickly, so they do not penetrate armor well.

Hmmm, I concede your point. I've never shot a dead tree which was wearing armor. A bunch of 1d+1s against said dead tree does a great deal of damage, but through thick metal, I'm sure it would be significantly reduced.

Thanks!

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by CthulhuBob

Hmmm, I concede your point. I've never shot a dead tree which was wearing armor. A bunch of 1d+1s against said dead tree does a great deal of damage, but through thick metal, I'm sure it would be significantly reduced.

Thanks!

How to effectively model a tough, hard body (like a tree) rather than a layer of protective material over a comparatively squishy body is something GURPS may struggle with.

Though a tree statted with enough DR to stop low-powered pistol bullets (pretty much the same as buckshot) from penetrating at all seems a bit off regardless.

[AlexanderHowl]

Since the OP scenario does not exist in GURPS (1/2 D range for shotguns using shot is 50 yards, so 10% is 5 yards). At the 3 yard scenario, P effectively fires three 4d+4 pi (0.25) at S rather than 3×9 1d+1 pi pellets, so P's effectively skill is 19 (+0 for RoF 3, -1 for 3 yard range). Now P will probably hit with all three shots, but he really should be going for head shots with a 19 to hit.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

It's not that the target's DR is actually better, it's that the armor still is protecting against each pellet in the shotload individually, even though at close range the damage roll has combined them into one number, so you multiply the DR to have it protect appropriately.

I could see why that approach might upset some shotgunners. If you're rolling 1d+1 multiple times, you stand a chance of one of those getting past something high like 5 or 6 DR, but with multiplied DR and averaged-out damage, your chances of getting through get slimmer.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

At close range (10% 1/2D), you multiply the damage of shot by half the multiplier, rounded down, and multiply any target DR by half the multiplier, rounded down (Basic, p. 409). The RoF goes from 3×9 to 3. So, you are likely to hit with all three at 2 yards, but you will only do an average of 18 HP per shot, for an average of 54 HP. If your target has a heavy leather coat on (DR 2), it increases to DR 8, meaning that the damage drops to 10 HP per shot, 30 HP total. If your target has a ballistic vest on (DR 8), it increases to DR 32, meaning that they only take blunt trauma damage (an average of 3 HP per shot, or 9 HP total).

Blunt trauma from bullets is only 1/10, so 1HP per shot unless the roll is slightly better than average, though I'd be willing to total the damage from all hits to the same location before dividing.

I do, as a house rule, specify that the minimum damage an injury can cause is equal the blunt trauma it would cause if it had done damage exactly equal to any effective DR.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Since the OP scenario does not exist in GURPS (1/2 D range for shotguns using shot is 50 yards, so 10% is 5 yards). At the 3 yard scenario, P effectively fires three 4d+4 pi (0.25) at S rather than 3×9 1d+1 pi pellets, so P's effectively skill is 19 (+0 for RoF 3, -1 for 3 yard range). Now P will probably hit with all three shots, but he really should be going for head shots with a 19 to hit.

Nah. Head shots bring his hit chance down to 12 or 14 (depending what you mean by 'head shot'), and if that's to the skull with its effective DR8, the expected damage is actually not very impressive (especially if the combined blast is assumed to be pi++, as in Tactical Shooting) given the higher chance of not hitting with all three or having some dodged, especially if Rcl is counted as being as for slugs, again as per TS). Instead, aim for the vitals for almost more damage (no DR) and a 16- to hit (which is also optimal for crit-fishing).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

RAW, you'd just roll each of the 9 hits and apply them against DR separately. I could see cause to speed things up by just rolling once and having that roll apply to every single one of the 9 hits, but that does open the door to the possibility of outlier events (for example, you have a ~26% chance of rolling an 8 or lower and doing no damage at all). I could also see cause with 4 or more hits to roll, say, 3 of them, then have the others either be simply 3.5/die or an average of the first three results.

I was more asking how CthulhuBob did it in light of their question, but cheers

cheers

TD

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

How to effectively model a tough, hard body (like a tree) rather than a layer of protective material over a comparatively squishy body is something GURPS may struggle with.

Though a tree statted with enough DR to stop low-powered pistol bullets (pretty much the same as buckshot) from penetrating at all seems a bit off regardless.

In terms of a quick and simply GURPS solution I'd be tempted to make trees homogenous

To get more detailed I'd have to start thinking about tree botany and how Unliving, DR, IT*, homogeneous all might apply to it, and I hated botany ;-0

(is there a plant body meta trait anywhere?)


*or whatever the advantage that's version of resistance where you apply a divisor to damage (think it's in powers)?