07-17-2015, 08:11 AM | #21 |
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kernersville, NC
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Also, I should probably mention I'm running GURPS Low-Tech Fantasy, without the DF power levels and Cinematic rules available throughout GURPS.
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07-17-2015, 08:31 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Apr 2015
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
For average folk, say around bow skill 12 (ST 10, DX 10), I would say that the bow is not your best choice of range weapon, especially if you are able to set up before hand. Take a crossbow instead, it is an easy skill (so effectively skill 13 compared to the bow mans skill 12), has ACC 4 instead of 3, and can be braced for a +1. Crossbows are fairly cheap, and for almost the same cost as a broadsword, you can buy yourself a Fine crossbow to increase max range as well. Fine crossbow bolts also increase damage by a respectable amount, while costing only $10 each.
*Breakdown of combat, skip to the end for conclusions* If we assume a low skill level of 12 for our bowman, our crossbowman starts with skill 13. Because the crossbowman can dictate range (He simply runs until he is happy with the battle field), he will be able to decide where the fight starts happening, in this case I will assume something simple that gives him the something to brace his crossbow against. His skill is now 14, enough to hit 50/50 to the torso at 10 yards. Aiming for 3 seconds gives him ACC+2, or +6 to skill. His skill is now effectively 20, enough to hit the torso 50/50 at 100 yards (the start of the engagement distance). At that distance there is no need to worry about defending, so add in an AOA(determined) for another +1. At skill 21 he can hit the torso 65% of the time. Even with a ST 10 character he is doing 1d6+3 Imp damage with a Fine bolt, or Pi with a bodkin if they are armoured. At 100 yards the swordsman is sprinting for 16 seconds before he reaches the position of the crossbowman. Each shot takes 1 to fire, 4 to reload, then 3 to aim, so he can fire off ~3 shots if he has to reload himself and starts with a loaded bow, 2 shots otherwise. The first shot would probobly be a 65% shot to the torso, with a ~30% of being dodged (move 5+3 = dodge 8). That is a solid hit 45% of the time for an average of 6.5*2=13 damage, enough to send any average man to the floor. 8 seconds pass while our crossbowman reloads, the swordsman (if he is still up) closes another 6*8= 48 yards, putting him at 52 yards, and we'll wait to fire until he gets to 50 yards for a -8 to hit. Now a torso shot at skill 13 hits 80% of the time, and still is dodged 30%, hitting solidly 56% of the time. Now the swordsman is going to close to 14 yards, we will not use the +2 seconds of aim to make sure we can stand and draw any sort of melee weapon to fend him off. This leaves us with skill 19 and a penalty of -5. A shot to the torso hits 90% of the time, is dodged 30%, and connects solidly 63% of the time. The swordsman from above has a ~8% chance of making it to the crossbowman without being hit, assuming the crossbowman was ready for his charge (loaded crossbow, braced, and aimed) and still has to face off with him in melee. Drop two points in crossbow (back to skill 12) and pick up two points in knife to fend off people close and the fight at melee range isn't clear cut either. Finally, the crossbowman can stack the odds more heavily in his favor. Bring a pile of crossbows, and you can send a bolt down range every 3 rounds (Pick up, aim, fire). If you don't need to load them, bring ST 19 crossbows for a massive 2d6+4 with a Fine bolt. Take more pot shots at extreme range, with an effective skill 21 you have a chance %26 to hit out to the max range of 300 yards with a Fine crossbow. Poison the bolts, poison on a piercing weapon takes one dose, vs 3 for a slashing weapon, so you get more bang for your buck. TL;DR: A crossbow makes a better weapon for a low skill character, especially if they are able to pick the battlefield and come prepared, and even 1 point allows for fairly lethal shots at long range. Last edited by VariousRen; 07-17-2015 at 08:34 AM. Reason: Missing words |
07-17-2015, 08:36 AM | #23 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
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If you want to take an archer into a dungeon setting, you don't treat them as front line fighters. You want a row of knights or barbarians or other tough hand to hand fighters between them and the monster. They amount to nonmagical substitutes for fireball-throwing wizards.
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07-17-2015, 08:43 AM | #24 | |
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kernersville, NC
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
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07-17-2015, 08:48 AM | #25 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
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Archers that want to reliably beat the same number of melee shock troops need something to keep the range open - a wall, a ditch, a muddy field, to be mounted so they can run away, but something. Standing in place on a featureless plane until the swordsmen reach you is just bad tactics. When the advantage of your weapon is its reach, you should avoid giving it up by letting your foes into close combat.
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07-17-2015, 09:08 AM | #26 |
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Archers in dungeon situations either
-are sufficiently over the top that they're eye-shotting the opposition constantly, preferably at a rate of one every turn or two. or -are going to be significantly less effective in straightforward action than melee characters, but might make up for it somewhat by being able to threaten otherwise out-of-reach opponents. EDIT: Having a dedicated archer may not be worthwhile, as opposed to having everyone pack some kind of secondary ranged capability. Move and Attack is pretty well useless for non-cinematic archers. A bow is Bulk -6 or worse, usually worse. And as you've noticed, archers already have quite enough skill sinks. For Move and Attack with a bow to be any good, you're going to need extreme, cinematic skill levels or the Heroic Archer advantage. Horse archers and the like don't Move and Attack, they Attack or All Out Attack while their mount or vehicle Moves. They also don't usually fit into dungeons well.
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07-17-2015, 09:13 AM | #27 | ||||
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Here are some useful base lines for your comparisons.
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07-17-2015, 09:13 AM | #28 | |
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kernersville, NC
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
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Part of the problem, of course, is convincing my players (who are more used to Pathfinder/D&D) that using a bow and arrow is significantly slower than using a sword. Getting them to let go of some of those ingrained paradigms is certainly a challenge.
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07-17-2015, 09:22 AM | #29 |
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Midwest, USA
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
Here's my 2010 thread, which is about exactly the same thing:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=73452
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07-17-2015, 09:31 AM | #30 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?
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One problem is that you're going from DF-level cinematics to a more realistic setting. You'll want to be explicit that your campaign is more realistic than what they're used to, and also more lethal - they'll be more likely to appreciate the ability to engage a foe at range, even with the delays between attacks, once they understand how quickly things can go pear-shaped in melee. Running some example combats before the campaign starts will be extremely useful for you. Last edited by Varyon; 07-17-2015 at 09:34 AM. |
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