heroic archer + extra attack 1

[Kazander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

For the sake of sanity, I heartily suggest allowing perks / techniques to deal with the fast draw and fast ready rolls . . . . sooooo many rolls

Also cutting and AP arrows are your friends, as AP can at least allow paper cuts to armored foes, and cutting allows you to help vs golems / undead etc

Cornucopia quivers are your friend! You need two for each arrow type

Ditto for this. All those rolls really start to bog down play. Especially if your Heroic Archer then goes down the path of Imbuements. Which he will want to, once he realizes that Shields are his Nemesis, because Leading the Target only applies against Dodge defenses.

I think that the Heroic Archer can attack two different targets with his DWA, but he loses the ACC bonus against the second target unless he has the Enhanced Tracking (Multiple Lock-Ons, +20%) [6/level] Power Up...otherwise I can't see any reason for this Power Up.

Extra Attack can be used with the bow, it just requires additional Fast Draw and Ready rolls (at further penalties for being used in the same turn).

And as Bruno states, you're probably going to want Luck. In fact, this becomes necessary for almost any DF character once you get high up in point totals, because Criticals can ruin your Heroic narrative very quickly. :-)

[Bruno]

Re the penalties for doing everything again, with DWA, in the same turn with extra attack:
The fast draw roll would be at an additional -4 (-2/-1) and the fast ready roll would be another -6 (-3/-1) the actual attack should be only at the usual -6 (-4/-1) as extra attack absolves you of stacking rapid strike.

Forgive my terseness, I'm on a phone.

[MIB.6361]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

For the sake of sanity, I heartily suggest allowing perks / techniques to deal with the fast draw and fast ready rolls . . . . sooooo many rolls

Also cutting and AP arrows are your friends, as AP can at least allow paper cuts to armored foes, and cutting allows you to help vs golems / undead etc

Cornucopia quivers are your friend! You need two for each arrow type

One of my first House Rules in DF was "Fast Draw is a perk per weapon type, you don't roll, you just do it. If there's a situation where you'd roll, use your weapon skill."
Every archer has at least one Cornucopia quiver (one cornucopia slot, plus 19 mundane arrows in case of low/no mana zones).

[Boge]

Thanks a ton for those answers!

I also can't help but comment on ranged combat vs melee in a medieval setting. It seems very unbalanced.

I'm currently playing two campaigns. In one, I have a 17 ST melee fighter with a sword and shield with weapon mastery. He does 5d damage swing. He just seems unstoppable. I'm not worried about ranged attacks as I can block. I don't care if a foe is armored because I cut right through it easily. I can also parry, block, for better defenses as well as the shield bonus.

On the flip side, I have a weapon mastery bow user. He's stuck doing 2d-1 thrust damage I believe. He has the penalties for ranged as well as all these other penalties to shoot faster. And they run out of arrows (not counting Cornucopia quivers)

In the campaign with my figher, another player has a bow user and she basically shrugs and doesn't bother fighting because her wimpy 1d bow damage is a joke vs me and my brother who also does 4D swing damage. We're rapid striking enemies down while she is shooting once every other turn.

I'm not adding up all the totals, but to have even close to a comparable archer seems to cost quite a bit more in points than just a melee fighter.

I'm sure I'm overlooking some scenarios, but for the basic hex map combat, melee seems so much more effective.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Boge

I also can't help but comment on ranged combat vs melee in a medieval setting. It seems very unbalanced.

Go complain to physics. GURPS doesn't attempt to "balance" these things, any more than it tries to "balance" stabbing people with little knives vs whacking them with big swords vs using a bazooka.

The thing that usually matters, however, is that people realistically don't use bows in melee combat, nor frankly within charging distance (30 yards, say) unless it's entirely from surprise. The archers were often 100 yards away from the front line in a battlefield, and in hunting you have to take whatever range you get from the deer.

Bows aren't meant for skirmish distances, which is just about any hex map that fits on my dinner table at the popular 1" = 1 yard scale.

[Boge]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Go complain to physics. GURPS doesn't attempt to "balance" these things, any more than it tries to "balance" stabbing people with little knives vs whacking them with big swords vs using a bazooka.

The thing that usually matters, however, is that people realistically don't use bows in melee combat, nor frankly within charging distance (30 yards, say) unless it's entirely from surprise. The archers were often 100 yards away from the front line in a battlefield, and in hunting you have to take whatever range you get from the deer.

Bows aren't meant for skirmish distances, which is just about any hex map that fits on my dinner table at the popular 1" = 1 yard scale.

Right. I came to that conclusion shortly before your post. Thanks a lot for your help.

[Kalzazz]

With the heroic archer ability to add Acc to your skill, it means firing a bow at 3 paces can put arrows in peoples eyes

Also 30yd range? That takes 6 rounds for a move 5 for to cross. Archers love that, as they DWA happily away they can kill 9 or so foes before they can close . . . or sometimes wound people to Slowed or KO check range and they never close

Archers can make melee fighters grumpy because no enemies live long enough to get to melee

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Boge

Thanks a ton for those answers!

I also can't help but comment on ranged combat vs melee in a medieval setting. It seems very unbalanced.
...
I'm not adding up all the totals, but to have even close to a comparable archer seems to cost quite a bit more in points than just a melee fighter.

I'm sure I'm overlooking some scenarios, but for the basic hex map combat, melee seems so much more effective.

My experience is that if you start at 50-60 yards or more, the skilled archer murders everything before the melee guys get into range. This is especially noticeable if the targets are large animals, like lions or dinosaurs, that can't block incoming arrows. Bodkins to the vitals kill anything living; impaling arrows to the feet cripple the undead and other unliving/homogeneous targets.

I've repeatedly had combats that were the archer rolling dice for multiple turns while the melee guys spent their time running across the map, and if they were lucky, finishing off 1-2 foes that finally got into distance.

I also suspect that your melee monster has only faced scrub archers with skill in the 12-16 range and 1d or so damage. A high skill, heroic archer firing twinned arrows laughs at your shield (can't block twice, or at least not easily) and penetrates your armor with bodkins that do massive damage because they target your vitals. And the reason you don't fight archers like that is because they kill PCs and aren't fun to fight against.

Finally, melee fighters are rather pathetic against flying ranged attackers, which while they aren't a normal part of historical games, are fairly common in fantasy and games that feature weapon masters. There's nothing more pathetic than a dual-wielding swashbuckler/Cuisinart begging a manticore to fly down in range of the swashbuckler's blades because the swashbuckler has no ability to hit something that he can't walk up to.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Finally, melee fighters are rather pathetic against flying ranged attackers, which while they aren't a normal part of historical games, are fairly common in fantasy and games that feature weapon masters. There's nothing more pathetic than a dual-wielding swashbuckler/cusinart begging a manticore to fly down in range of the swashbuckler's blades because the swashbuckler has no ability to hit something that he can't walk up to.

This is why I always strongly recommend that your melee specialists carry something they can throw or shoot. If they "plan" on never needing it, make it something relatively small, fine. But bring it. You'll feel a little dumb throwing shuriken at a manticore, but it's actually half-effective against harpies and winged elves and such.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Boge

I'm not adding up all the totals, but to have even close to a comparable archer seems to cost quite a bit more in points than just a melee fighter.

I'm sure I'm overlooking some scenarios, but for the basic hex map combat, melee seems so much more effective.

If you build a archer on the same cost than a 5d swing cuisinart, I believe you can get an archer with 3d(2) pi damage ... The cuisinart will do 3 5d attack a round on anyone he can reach, while the archer will only do one 3d (2) but at range.
The sword and board guy can parry/block a lot, while the archer is dead if someone come into melee range... but he doesn't have to come in melee range.
And a fine bow bow cost 1/4 of a fine×2 sword, but of course you have the arrows cost to consider.
Imho, it is rather balanced.

Here are 2 hasty build, probably unbalanced and a few mistakes, but roughly similar (obviously, they are missing non combat stuff, disads,... and the archer is missing Zen archery :)

Attributes [100]
ST 14 [40]
DX 12 [40]
IQ 10
HT 12 [20]

HP 14
Will 10
Per 10
FP 12

Basic Lift 39
Damage 1d+2/3d-1

Basic Speed 6
Basic Move 6

Advantages [101]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Enhanced Block (3) [15]
Extra Attack (1) (Multi-Strike; Single Skill) [25]
Luck [15]
Striking ST (3) (One attack only) [6]
Weapon Master (Blade and Shield) (two weapons normally used together) [25]

Perks [1]
Weapon Bond (Broadsword) [1]

Skills [40]
Broadsword DX/A - DX+5 17 [20]
Shield (Shield) DX/E - DX+6 18 [20]

Stats [100] Ads [101] Disads [0] Quirks [0] Skills [40] = Total [242]

Hand Weapons
1  Heavy Kiljic  (fine, fine(balanced))
LC:4  $12000  Wgt:3  
    Swing  Dam:5d cut  Reach:1  Parry:13  
    Thrust  Dam:3d imp  Reach:1  Parry:13

Attributes [110]
ST 14 [40]
DX 12 [40]
IQ 10
HT 12 [20]

HP 14
Will 10
Per 12 [10]
FP 12

Basic Lift 39
Damage 1d/2d

Basic Speed 6
Basic Move 6


Advantages [85]
Acute Vision (3) [6]
Arm ST (3) (One arm) [9]
Heroic Archer [20]
Luck [15]
Weapon Master (Bow) (a medium class of weapons) [35]

Perks [2]
Strongbow [1]
Weapon Bond (Bow) [1]

Skills [40]
Bow DX/A - DX+7 19 [28]
Fast-Draw (Arrow) DX/E - DX+4 16 [12]

Stats [110] Ads [85] Disads [0] Quirks [0] Skills [40] = Total [237]


Ranged Weapons
Composite Bow (ST 18)  LC:4|4  $3600  Wgt:4  fine(balanced)
    Barbed-head  Dam:3d imp  Acc:3  Range:432 / 540  
    RoF:1  Shots:1(2)  ST:10†  Bulk:-7  Rcl:  Notes:[3]  
    Bodkin Point  Dam:3d (2) pi  Acc:3  Range:432 / 540  
    RoF:1  Shots:1(2)  ST:10†  Bulk:-7  Rcl:  Notes:[3]