Adapting Third Edition Templates To Fourth Edition

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Even historical knights who are warriors vary from William the Conqueror's mounted spearmen in heavy mail to zweihander wielding infantrymen in Maximillian plate. It's not a precise term and it covers over 1000 years of history.

And you sometimes see the term knight used as a broad "cultural translation" for heavy cavalry going back an extra thousand years before that - which isn't entirely unjustified, as the cost of maintaining a warhorse means such a warrior is almost always a landlord or a sworn officer thereof (i.e. the equivalent of a European knight).

[Otaku]

Oh, good, RyanW weighing in now lets me avoid a double post as I address some of the things maximara and DavidJohnston2 were discussing.

They (and anyone who wishes) can continue to debate whether the minimum ST requirements in Basic Set were properly converted from Third Edition to Fourth Edition, but I'm using this to again stress how I believe one ought to approach selecting traits for these templates. There might be enough to their discussion to make their discussion of minimum STs worth its own thread, assuming they haven't already settled things and I just didn't notice. ^^'

I do not think I am overstating that a "Heroic Knight" ought to be stronger than the average human, meaning the template ought to have at least ST 11. After that, one ought to consider the actual traits one has given the template. In this case, you will notice the Lance Skill is included among the Primary Skills. According to page 272 of the Basic Set, the regular ol' Lance requires a minimum ST of 12. Considering the other two listed Weapon Skills, Axe/Mace and Broadsword, nothing requires more than ST 12.

It is probably worth noting that a "regular" mace (as opposed to the Small Mace) also requires a minimum ST of 12. The reason I am focusing on the lance, though, is your knight could just use a small mace and still be a mace-wielding knight. Similarly, while not a requirement, ST 12 granting 1 more point of swing damage, 1 more Hit Point, and better Lifting ST is also desirable, and affirms that ST 12 is the way to go. ST 13 is tempting, but I believe that it elevates the "baseline" for a heroic knight a little too high, plus the template is quite pricey already! I'll finish by stating, again, that I realized all of this in hindsight; when I started on these conversions over a year ago, I simply copied the ST 12 from the original, Third Edition version of the template. XP

[Qoltar]

When I attempt to convert a Third edition character into 4th edition GURPS I usually take the original character point and multgiply it by 1.5 and see if that works out.

My reasoning is that 3rd edition GURPS had a default of "100 points" for most starting out characters and 4th edition seems to suugest "150 points" as the norm or usual for starting characters.

- Ed C.

[Stormcrow]

The third edition definitely did recommend that characters start at 100 character points. Frequently.

The fourth edition does not assume a "standard" number of starting points. Instead, it freely suggests different amounts based on the nature of any given campaign.

Because fourth-edition costs are generally kinda-sorta about one and a half times third-edition costs, people are tempted to take the third-edition standard starting amount of 100, multiply it by 1.5, and suggest this is some kind of standard amount of starting points for the fourth edition. It is not. The fourth edition does not have a standard starting total.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

The third edition definitely did recommend that characters start at 100 character points. Frequently.

The fourth edition does not assume a "standard" number of starting points. Instead, it freely suggests different amounts based on the nature of any given campaign.

Because fourth-edition costs are generally kinda-sorta about one and a half times third-edition costs, people are tempted to take the third-edition standard starting amount of 100, multiply it by 1.5, and suggest this is some kind of standard amount of starting points for the fourth edition. It is not. The fourth edition does not have a standard starting total.

True, but if you're talking about translating templates, multiplying by 1.5* should correspond to a roughly similar ability level. 150 points isn't the default in 4e but still represents an exceptional but non-cinematic hero. Most of the templates in GURPS Warriors are intended to represent above average but not elite warriors. So most should have point values below 150.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Qoltar

When I attempt to convert a Third edition character into 4th edition GURPS I usually take the original character point and multgiply it by 1.5 and see if that works out.

My reasoning is that 3rd edition GURPS had a default of "100 points" for most starting out characters and 4th edition seems to suugest "150 points" as the norm or usual for starting characters.

- Ed C.

Actually 4e kept to classic's categories until you got to 150 points (Heroic vs Full-fledged hero):

==4e==
*Feeble: (below 25 points): Small children, mindless thralls, and zombies
*Average (25-50 points): Ordinary folk. Point range of GURPS Historical Folks
*Competent (50-75 points): Athletes, cops, wealthy gentry and upper
*Exceptional (75-100 points): Star athletes, seasoned cops
*Heroic (100-200 points): People at the realistic pinnacle of physical, mental, or social achievement.
*Larger-than-Life (200-300 points): Leading roles in kung fu movies, fantasy novels, etc; GURPS Dungeon Fantasy characters are 250 points.
*Legendary (300-500 points): Protagonists of epic poems and folklore. Monster Hunters are 400 points.
*Superhuman (500-1,000 points): Those who have transcended humanity and powerful creatures of fantasy.
*Godlike (over 1,000 points): True demigods

==Classic==
*Below-average: 15 points or less
*Average: 25 points
*Above-average: 50 points
*Experienced: 75 points
*Hero material: 100 points
*Full-fledged hero: 150 points
*Truly outstanding: 200 points
*Superhuman: 300 points Or more

[Otaku]

Nice to see some more folks weighing in.

Some updates. First, I have been trying to read more of GURPS Martial Arts for Fourth Edition. The short version is I got it a little while ago, started reading it, got busy, and forgot about it. >.> I am jumping around, which is a bit risky I know.

As has already been pointed out, there's a nice Warrior Template there, which can be built into a lot of the templates I'm trying to adapt. For now, I simply plan to create something that wouldn't require relying (or relying as much) on GURPS Martial Arts. Though I certainly would want to use the more advanced and/or detailed rules from that book, I suspect that I wouldn't want to do so until the rest of the group (and myself!) were more familiar with them.

So... let me get back to that first template, the example template from GURPS Classic Warriors, the Heroic Knight. I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I want to make it even more generic. This might be utterly, utterly foolish of me, and I don't think I have to ask you all to tell me that if it is the case. I decided to create a more baseline "Knight" template, with an additional Lens to make them into the more impressive (and higher priced) "Heroic Knight":

Knight [125 points] (p005-009)
Attributes: ST 12 [20], DX 11 [20], IQ 10 [0], HT 11 [10].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2 HP12 [0] WILL 11 [5] PER 10 [0] FP 11 [0] Basic Speed 5.75 [0] Basic Move 5 [0]
Advantages: Status 2 [10], Wealth: Comfortable [10]
Disadvantages: Duty: Liege Lord (9 or less) [-5]
Primary Skills: Broadsword (A) DX+3 [12]-14 or Axe/Mace (A) DX+3 [12]-14, Lance (A) DX+3 [12]-14, Riding (Any) (A) DX+2 [8]-13, Shield (E) DX+3 [8]-14, Wrestling (A) DX+3 [8]-13
Secondary Skills: Brawling (E) DX+2 [2]-12
Background Skills: Armoury/TL3 (Any) (A) IQ [2]-10, Heraldry (A) IQ [2]-10, Savoir-Faire (E) IQ [1]-10

Now to explain the method to my (maybe) madness. When it comes to Attributes, the same reasons for ST 12 from earlier still apply. The new DX, IQ, and HT aren't as impressive, and that is on purpose. It is no longer your stereotypical "heroic" knight, but someone who trained hard to be a knight. As for Secondary Characteristics, PER, FP, Basic Speed, and Basic Move are lower than my previous attempt at this template, but still worth zero points. I did spend 5 CP to raise the Knight's Will to 11; perhaps this is me romanticizing things, but I thought a just-above-average-will seemed appropriate. If it doesn't, then please let me know as this will lower the template cost by 5 CP.

I have left the Advantages untouched, but you'll notice the Disadvantages now only contain the required Duty. Again, we're no longer dealing with a "heroic" knight, but just a "regular" knight. Most (if not all) of the list of Disadvantages to choose from skewed heroic, so I chose to set them aside for a Heroic Lens.

Wrestling has been added as a Primary Skill; the other Primary Skills retain the same level as before, but at a higher point cost relative to previous iterations. Unless I blew the math, this is no more expensive and/or less than having a higher DX. Secondary Skills now only contains Brawling. I am uncertain if it is important enough to be listed as such, but I decided that Leadership and Tactics leaned more into the Heroic side of things. I don't know if it is Kosher for the Background Skills found on Templates, but lowering Intelligence while spending an extra point each on Amoury and Heraldry also was a net positive; I left Savoir-Faire at just 1 CP, as Skill 10 still seemed adequate.

[Otaku]

Please pardon the double post, but I made time to work on the templates and things suddenly just started "clicking". I was able to get all the Knight Template Lenses to the same 30 point cost. On top of the base Knight template, that means the total comes to 155 without having maxed out Disadvantages and Quirks. There was a different cost to this, however; I beefed up what the existing lenses gave, and there are some Skills that could be higher or lower if I wasn't trying to hit 30 CP on the dot.

Courtly Knight (+30 points): Add +1 IQ [20], Charisma +2 [10], Enemy (Political faction) (Medium-sized Group, 6 or less) [-10], Dancing (A) DX [2]-12, Diplomacy (H) IQ [4]-11, Falconry (M/A) IQ-1 [1]-10, Games (Chess) (E) IQ [1]-11, Politics (M/A) IQ [2]-11. This kind of knight should not be Illiterate.

Most of the changes here were because of my changes to the base Template. As I believe IQ 11 is sufficient as the baseline for a Courtly Knight, the +1 remains the same. I have added Charisma +2 as that seems appropriate (and maybe even necessary) for this kind of character. The Enemy Disadvantage I left untouched. While the Attributes are higher than the base Knight template I just posted, they're lower than in previous attempts; I decided to just spend more CP on the relevant Skills. I did add Diplomacy to the Skills from this Lens, and bought up to IQ. I believe Charisma would usually provide a bonus to Diplomacy rolls, but I might be reading RAW incorrectly. I might have to lower Charisma down to just one level, though, because this version of Courtly Knight currently lacks Leadership or Tactics.

General (+30 points): Add +1 IQ [20], Talent: War-Born Leader 2 [10], Bloodlust (12) [-10*], Leadership (A) IQ [2]-13, Strategy (H) IQ [4]-13, and Tactics (H) IQ [4]-13. Note: Talent adds +1/level to Leadership, Strategy, and Tactics (already included).

While the original version of this Lens does not include any bonus to IQ, since I have the base template at IQ 10, I decided the +1 fit here. The big change is replacing Charisma with War Born-Leader. While I normally favor the option from Basic over something from a supplement, this talent benefits multiple Skills important to the General Template. Speaking of which, Leadership and Tactics, originally present in the base Heroic Knight template but absent from my plain Knight template, were again added back in at this point.

Heroic (30): Add +1 DX [20], +1 IQ [20], +1 HT [10], -25 points of mental disadvantages chosen from Charitable [-15*], Code of Honor (Chivalry) [-15], Compulsive Behavior (Vowing) (12) [-5*], Honesty [-10*], Pacifism (Cannot Harm Innocents) [-10], Selfless [-10], Sense of Duty (Nation) [-10], Truthfulness [-5*], and Vow (Never refuse a request for aid) [-15]; Leadership (A) IQ-[1]-10, and Tactics (H) IQ [4]-11

Here's where I put the stuff I split off from the original base template. The DX still isn't as high as it once was, but because we've invested more points in Skills, it still results in Skill 15 where before it was Skill 14, Skill 14 where before it was Skill 13, etc. The same for IQ, though that did reach its old, previous high. To pay for this, more Disadvantage points had to be spent, but I just stuck in the more "heroic" Disadvantage options from the original template. Leadership and Tactics return here; it may seem odd that I'm only spending 5 total points on the two Skills, and that Tactics is now higher than Leadership but... well... I only had 5 CP left to spend.

I am wondering if Independent Income should be worked in, for a Heroic Knight who doesn't have to spend much time managing their estate. To the point I debated creating an Adventuring Knight template instead of or in addition to the above Heroic one.

Monster Slayer (+30 points): Add +1 DX [20], +1 PER [5], Overconfidence (12) [-5*] and Tracking (A) PER [2]-11. Choose one of Bow (A) DX+1 [4]-13, Crossbow (E) DX+2 [4]-14 or Sling (H) DX [4]-12. Choose one of Biology/TL3 (Zoology) (H) IQ [4]-10, Hidden Lore (A) IQ+1 [4] -11, Naturalist (H) IQ [4]-10, or Theology (H) IQ [4]-10. Specializations must be relevant to whatever it is you’re hunting and killing.

The Dragonslayer has become the "Monster slayer", in the spirit of genericization. If it doesn't sound too much like something else, I might just call it the "Slayer" Lens instead. I expect more out of a slayer of monsters, so the higher DX makes sense to me here. It also means all those highly trained combat Skills from the base Knight template go up by one, and that again makes sense to me. Noticing things is also more important, so PER gets bumped up as well. I left in Overconfidence, though I'm tempted to come up with a few alternatives to list and give the players a choice. I know it makes things a bit messy, but I decided to give our slayers a choice between Bow, Crossbow, and Sling for ranged weapons. I also give a choice in what kind of knowledge Skill the Monster Slayer has. If any of those skills don't make sense - I'm looking at you, Theology - then please, let me know. :)

Villainous (30): Add +1 DX [20], +1 IQ [20], +1 HT [10], -30 points of Mental and/or Social Disadvantages chosen from Bully [-10]*, Callous [-5]* or Low Empathy [-20]*, Enemy (Political faction) (Medium-sized Group, 6 or less) [-10], Greed [-15]*, Intolerance [Varies], Jealousy [-10], Lecherousness [-15*], Megalomania [-10] or Overconfidence [-5]*, Miserliness [-10], Obsession [-5 or -10]*, Sadism [-15]*, Secret [-5 to -30], Selfish [-5]*, or Stubbornness [-5], Diplomacy (H) IQ-1 [2] -10, Fast-Talk (A) IQ+1 [4]-12, and Intimidation (A) WILL [4]-13 Note: Some of the Disadvantages may be off-limits to PCs; check with your GM.

Maybe it says something about me, but I'm pretty sure "villainous" knights are about as common as heroic ones. Granted, that is because a good (or is it bad?) Villainous knight can pass as a heroic one, but I digress. Getting away with being bad requires having a little something "extra", so I went ahead and added +1 to DX, IQ and Health. This Lens is using up -30 of the player's allowable Disadvantages, and that is on top of the -5 from the Duty found on the base Knight template. It may seem odd that I chose Diplomacy, Fast-Talk and Intimidate, and it is. I should probably reword it to spending 10 points on a choice between the three. Intimidation is the most obvious tool for a Villainous Knight, but Fast-Talk seems like a close second. Diplomacy may feel out of place, but a good bad guy, again, comes across as a good guy when they are able... or at least knows how to placate those with power over them when a plan fails.

Violent(+30 points): Add +1 ST [10], DX [20], +1 IQ [20], +1 HT [10], -30 points of mental Disadvantages chosen from Berserk [-10]*, Bloodlust [-10],* Fanaticism [-15], Flashback [Varies], Impulsiveness [-10]*, Overconfidence [-5]*, Phantom Voices (Diabolical) [-15], Sadism [-15]*, and Secret [varies].

This template began as a joke, but the more I think about it, the more I worry it is quite realistic. I've lived a sheltered life, but even I am at least dimly aware of how violence can change a person... or, alternatively, expose what lurks below the surface. In terms of spending more points, I just raised the template's base Attributes across the board. No new Skills, but once again I've already used up -35 (-5 from the base template) of the player's allowed Disadvantages. I think there's enough in this list that you could combine the Violent Template with not just the base Knight package, but with any one of the other templates. The violent, villainous knight is obvious, but a secret sadist in the king's court, a general broken by his wartime experiences, an otherwise heroic knight who sometimes takes things too far with their foes, or monster hunter who has become worse than what they slay... yeah, all those are quite plausible.