Krait's Summon Wolf vs Yzor's Illusion Wolf

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Plane

Wouldn't you also need Literacy and some kind of spellcasting talent to become a wizard? I thought the only spell non-wizards could learn was Disbelieve.

No, literacy is not a requirement found in the rules. Some GMs might apply it at their table, though. See my blog for how I like to treat the issue.

The early work on the 5 tiers of Staff implies learning them only counts as one spell once you upgrade

Each staff spell is a separate spell.

"no more than 7" would let you make a 1-hex illusion if you wanted, but wouldn't it still cost 5 ST so owning the 11 IQ version would allow you to do 1-hex illusions at merely 2 ST, which would explain why you wouln't skip the prereqs.

No, Illusion is contained in the multi-hex illusion spells; it is not a prerequisite the way lower staff spells are for higher ones.

I wasn't aware you could purchase beyond the IQ limit on spells via EP/XP, guess staying within the limits is more attractive since it's "free" with the attribute upgrade?

I think that the Legacy Edition of ITL does not give a memory point to spend on a talent or spell when increasing IQ. (see ITL 45 for how to learn new talents).

Being at a distance, would the dragon possibly be penalized at -1/hex in using Disbelieve to try and dispel the illusions?

The rules never mention a penalty for range for disbelieving.

Do you mean an image of a warrior? Not sure why wrecking a real weapon wielded by an illusion would disappear the illusion, it's not like Control Animal or Control Human, is it?

Seconding Axly's answer.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

"Do you mean an image of a warrior? Not sure why wrecking a real weapon wielded by an illusion would disappear the illusion, it's not like Control Animal or Control Human, is it?"

Illusions must remain one piece. See ITL 139 just before the Fire/Wall/Shadow section. So, it cannot shoot arrows. Thus a weapon being dropped or broken has a piece coming off... which it cannot so the piece would just disappear.

Some GM's believe this is enough to break the illusion or at the very least make it so obvious that it is not real that it is instantly disbelieved. Other GM's handle it in other ways or just say no one notices.

I think I understand now (you mean illusionary sword)

I was thinking of actually giving a real weapons to illusions to wield (ie let them throw rocks at dragons from range) but am remembering now that illusions cannot affect non-living things, so that would not be possible...

Although... wouldn't an illusion be able to throw IQ 2+ animals?

We just need to calculate how much damage a rat does, then you go around the dungeon collecting rats and pass them out to your illusions to throw.

You could strap molotovs to the rats, which should allow your illusions to throw molotovs, just so long as they're touching the rat part and not the molotov part.

Originally Posted by Shostak

No, Illusion is contained in the multi-hex illusion spells; it is not a prerequisite the way lower staff spells are for higher ones.

Do you know where it talks about the higher-hex spells giving ability to cast the lower-ST lower-hex ones without buying them?

[Rolando]

Rat-tied-molotov-launched-by-an-illusion, that's a Munchkin card right there.

I spilled my coffee Sr.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think I understand now (you mean illusionary sword)

Right--the sword is just part of the illusion of a soldier with a sword.

Although... wouldn't an illusion be able to throw IQ 2+ animals?

No, illusions do not work that way. See ITL 139.

Do you know where it talks about the higher-hex spells giving ability to cast the lower-ST lower-hex ones without buying them?

Yes, it is explicitly described on ITL 137.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Plane

Assuming you had access to both spells (Summon Wolf at Krait's IQ 9 is accessible earlier than Illusion at Yzor's IQ 11) would the benefits of Summon Wolf be worth the drawbacks?

If that question had one answer, the game would be vastly less interesting. There are many pros and cons, and they vary with practically every other detail of the situation.

Many of the players who have played this game for many years will give you different opinions on this, and sometimes be convinced they're right, but they don't agree with each other, and it always varies by situation, and players in a situation tend to have incomplete information . . .

. . . which again, is part of what makes it an enduringly interesting game, where even a basic wizard duel still fun and interesting to play for experienced players.

Originally Posted by Plane

...
Control Animal (T) is not a guarantee though since it involves a DX roll to use successfully, and you lose the ST cost if you critfail (pg 11 mentions "the wizard loses the full ST cost of the spell" not sure if that applies with normal DX fails)

Normal failures to cast almost all spells cause 1 ST point of fatigue.

Originally Posted by Plane

Disbelief is obviously the biggest problem with Illusion since EVERYONE with IQ 7+ knows it (not sure if it counts against the IQ limit of spells or is free beyond that) ...

No, Disbelieve doesn't count towards limits of known spells.

Originally Posted by Plane

Disbelief doesn't have a ST cost listed so I assume it is 0 (Krait isn't shown losing any ST when he does it), so that's like a free dismissal, except of course for it using up your turn like a normal spell ...

Yes.

Originally Posted by Plane

This begs an interesting question about the combat - how do you roleplay when an illusion is "suspected"?

We are told "Krait tries to disbelieve Yzor's wolf" and conveniently Yzor's wolf IS an illusion ... but why did Yzor not attempt to disbelieve in Krait's (real, summoned) wolf?

Unless he knew ahead of time "Krait is too low-IQ to learn illusion so that wolf MUST be real, can't disbelieve it" it seems like (given the low cost of illusions to create for long durations) you should pre-emptively attempt to disbelieve in any wolf you see in case it's an illusion, since that's a free net gain of 2 ST in the contest with your opponent.

Yes. Did you read the narrative version at the beginning of Wizard? It is written from Yzor's (non-gamey) perspective, and explains what he was thinking and feeling.

Originally Posted by Plane

This 'faking out' in Fantasy Trip Wizards happens a 2nd time in this fight, we see "Krait fakes a protective spell on himself." in turn 2 (he does nothing else)

This seems to work because instead of Yzor sending his Illusion Wolf to attack Krait, he instead sends the Illusion Wolf to attack the Summoned Wolf. It makes sense since wolves only subtract 1 hit from incoming damage, whereas something like Stone Flesh subtracts 4 hits.

Stone Flesh is an IQ 13 spell though... for Krait's ruse to fool Yzor, Yzor has to belief Krait's IQ is at least 13 .. which means Yzor should believe that Krait is capable of casting Illusion, which brings into question again why Yzor did not try Disbelieve.

No, Yzor thinks Krait is IQ 10 or less (see the narrative version), so he's not thinking Krait cast Stone Flesh. Krait could have failed to cast a spell (e.g. Blur), be faking, or could have cast say Aid, Shock Shield, Reveal Magic, or Speed Movement. Yzor may also not be thinking about any specific spells at all.

Originally Posted by Plane

I guess he opted for Dazzle since as an AE it hits both Krait and his wolf (real or otherwise) and maybe he figured he could have his Illusion Wolf kill/hinder Krait's wolf more rapidly than a possibly-pointless-disbelieve would?

Krait OTOH perhaps had the luxury of attempting a Disbelieve since Yzor was already on the ropes Disengaging from the attack of Krait's wolf, and knew Yzor would be baited into having his 2nd wolf attack Krait's 1st wolf instead of Krait himself, especially w/ the feigned armor spell?

Maybe some of that, yes. Not the Stone Flesh part, though. Yzor may know that Dazzle lets him Disengage from summoned wolves, and may be thinking that a summoned wolf will cost Krait to maintain, so buying time will wear Krait out. Particularly in a wizard duel without powerstones or staff mana, costing an enemy wizard fatigue is almost as good as injuring them. It's a close match, which could have gone either way.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Plane

if we assume all wizards at some point (prior to campaign start for those with higher IQs) began at IQ 8 then they could only have 7/8 of the spells their IQ would allow:

1) Blur
2) Disbelieve
3) Drop Weapon
4) Image
5) Magic Fist
6) Slow Movement
7) Staff

Based on that, a wizard NOT knowing these spells would make zero sense to me

Why assume wizards learn 7 spells at IQ 8? I'd say higher-IQ starting wizards were probably IQ 8 at some point during their childhood, and might not even have learned any spells at that point.

Originally Posted by Plane

It's only at IQ 9 (when 7 options unlock but you only have 2 left) where diverging paths would begin to make sense.

Otherwise it seems prime to start out with an IQ mage who knows the higher-level spells as his allotment, because if you started out as low-IQ you would have to intentionally start out with fewer spells than you're capable of knowing to keep those slots free to learn higher-IQ spells once you buy your IQ up.

That's how it worked in original TFT, yes, and seems still to be close to the assumption for how it works for NPCs or for PCs before they enter play. And, some people play with a mix of the systems, where increasing your IQ during play does let you then study spells up to your IQ without having to spend XP for them - this solves quite a few gripes some people have with the Legacy XP system for learning spells and talents.

[Draygon]

IAs to why Yzor did not try to disbelieve, me thinks that in the heat of battle, you have only so much time to strategize before acting. Fights are fast paced and of course can be analyzed to death in hindsight. But at the time, your brain can only process so much. Good points though! 👍