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Old 07-12-2022, 11:15 AM   #21
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades View Post
If you're the Designated Caster for a group of wizards casting Aid, you might want to then Aid yourself to "reset the timer" for the big pool of bonus ST you've been given.
Now there is an actual very practical tactic, for some situations.
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:10 PM   #22
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

There's a comment about Aid on ITL 162 that I find a bit puzzling.

Quote:
Other effects like potions and Aid spells are
cumulative with magic items, but only to the limit of 5.
You could have a DX +3 ring, and have a +3 Aid spell cast
on you and both would help, but increasing your DX only
to +5.
I have thought, in the past, that this was a Rule of Five limit to Aid -- that a six point Aid spell can only provide five points of benefit. But re-reading this (as I thought about Jack's tactic), I guess that's not so obvious. It explicitly mentions a limitation on Aid spells when one is gaining a similar benefit from magic items at the same time.

So, I guess that so long as the recipient is not wearing an attribute enhancing magical item, a single Aid spell can give as much benefit as the caster's ST.

I guess also that if one is wearing a ring of clumsiness, then he can receive six points of DX from Aid? A bit unusual...
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:56 PM   #23
Jack O'All Trades
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

Interesting point. I don't read that as a limitation on Aid to +5 (I also wouldn't restrict to a maximum adjusted stat of 14 as per the Attribute Enhancer items), but instead a limitation on the Attribute Enhancer's contribution. Example: The Attribute Enhancer at +3 adds only 2 of its points to the 3 Aid, because the Attribute Enhancer can't take you over 5. So if I had 4 Aid, I'd only get 1 of the 3 points from the Attribute Enhancer. At 5 or more Aid, the Attribute Enhancer has no effect.

If it is intended as a limitation on Aid, it should really be mentioned in the spell description, but given the way Aid is suggested to be used for magic item creation and very high ST spells (many of which are well over a normal human + 5 ST) I think it has to allow for more than +5, at least for the purposes of ST for spellcasting. And, honestly, most die rolls against attributes don't care about how high your stat is once the only possible failure is an auto-failure, so I don't see why a limitation would be necessary.
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Old 07-13-2022, 06:41 AM   #24
hcobb
 
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Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

My take is that Aid can only grant +5 ST, but any number of "bonus fatigue" points.
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Old 07-13-2022, 08:42 AM   #25
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
... So, I guess that so long as the recipient is not wearing an attribute enhancing magical item, a single Aid spell can give as much benefit as the caster's ST.

I guess also that if one is wearing a ring of clumsiness, then he can receive six points of DX from Aid? A bit unusual...
No, you're over-literalizing the wording. It would be silly to have Aid be unlimited, unless you're wearing a +1 Attribute enchantment. The reason it mentions it that way, is because the text there is about stacking effects.

Limiting boosts from enchantments and Aid to the lower of +5 or 14, heads off some excessively strong stacking effects, and preserves the value of actual exceptional ability of characters, while still letting such magic be extremely useful.

But as Henry suggested, Aid ST can let you cast spells with more than +5 ST. It just doesn't let you have unlimited muscle-power.

As for 15 being the highest useful DX, um, no . . . there are many things that much higher DX is useful for, many of which can mean the difference between life or death for foes.
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Old 07-13-2022, 09:35 AM   #26
hcobb
 
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Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

adjDX 27, minus 2 for range, minus 6 for taking the head shot with your dagger, for a net 19 or less on four dice to take out the dodging target. (Hopefully they won't act before you that turn.)
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Old 07-13-2022, 12:53 PM   #27
Jack O'All Trades
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

Can you get more than +5 from Aid to counteract negative modifiers?

I think this should be in the Aid spell rather than only references with regard to magic items; it should be referenced in the errata. It would offer the opportunity to clarify that the restriction is on the bonus to rolls and not on ST for the purposes of casting.

I don't mind such a restriction on Aid, by the way - I think it is a good idea - I just don't think it matters *most* of the time whether you have a DX of 20 or 25. I do see how you could game having an insanely high (but easily attainable with a quick Aid, if someone is willing to give all of their ST) DX to get nigh on guaranteed headshots against Dodgers and the like.
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Old 07-13-2022, 01:30 PM   #28
phiwum
 
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Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
No, you're over-literalizing the wording. It would be silly to have Aid be unlimited, unless you're wearing a +1 Attribute enchantment. The reason it mentions it that way, is because the text there is about stacking effects.

Limiting boosts from enchantments and Aid to the lower of +5 or 14, heads off some excessively strong stacking effects, and preserves the value of actual exceptional ability of characters, while still letting such magic be extremely useful.

But as Henry suggested, Aid ST can let you cast spells with more than +5 ST. It just doesn't let you have unlimited muscle-power.
It's possible that's the intention, but there's really nothing at all in the text (that I've seen) suggesting ST available for fatigue can be different than ST available for muscle-power. If that's the intention, it really should be explicitly and officially spelled out.

Indeed, this just raises more questions for me. Can this excess ST also be used to keep a person alive from wounds (at least temporarily), beyond the +5 muscle power limitation?

Quote:
As for 15 being the highest useful DX, um, no . . . there are many things that much higher DX is useful for, many of which can mean the difference between life or death for foes.
I'm not sure that this is relevant to anything I've said.
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Old 07-13-2022, 10:43 PM   #29
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It's possible that's the intention, but there's really nothing at all in the text (that I've seen) suggesting ST available for fatigue can be different than ST available for muscle-power. If that's the intention, it really should be explicitly and officially spelled out.
Yes, I agree, it really should be in the Aid description.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Indeed, this just raises more questions for me. Can this excess ST also be used to keep a person alive from wounds (at least temporarily), beyond the +5 muscle power limitation?
I would say so, at least while the Aid is in effect (so usually 2 turns . . .).


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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm not sure that this is relevant to anything I've said.
It wasn't. It was about what Jack wrote.
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Old 07-13-2022, 10:45 PM   #30
Skarg
 
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Default Re: how does chaining consecutive Aid (T) work for Wizards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades View Post
Can you get more than +5 from Aid to counteract negative modifiers?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack O'All Trades View Post
I think this should be in the Aid spell rather than only references with regard to magic items; it should be referenced in the errata. It would offer the opportunity to clarify that the restriction is on the bonus to rolls and not on ST for the purposes of casting.
Yes.
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