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Old 08-12-2018, 09:51 AM   #161
GranitePenguin
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Originally Posted by Tom H. View Post
Hey, thanks for the reply.

From my reading, I thought the rules could be a little ambiguous.

Referring to the latest Ogre Battle Box Web Rules:

Page 16 indicates that the destruction occurs "if it receives another D result while disabled." "Another D" could imply the first disable needed to be combat result induced.

Also, the bottom of page 11 reinforces the fact that in general how a unit becomes disabled may matter.

Note: I use my original Designer Edition rules, but noted that the above references did not change between the versions.
It's not ambiguous; a "D" is a "D", regardless of where it comes from. The game does not make a distinction between disabled by an attack vs disabled by terrain; the resulting disable is identical. "if it receives another D result while disabled" means if it was disabled by terrain, a second D from an attack will kill it. It does not imply that the first D has to come from combat.

The whole point is if you risk disabling a unit by driving it into dangerous terrain, it is more likely to be destroyed by an attack on the following turn.
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:17 AM   #162
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

Clever engineers can make one part do several things at once in a machine. SJ's game rules are much the same.
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:53 AM   #163
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

More and more, it does appear that the intent is that being disabled by terrain does make a unit vulnerable to a 'D' combat result. (I checked the Ogre Miniature rules for comparison, and while not unambiguous, it seems to align more.)

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It's not ambiguous; a "D" is a "D", regardless of where it comes from. The game does not make a distinction between disabled by an attack vs disabled by terrain; the resulting disable is identical.
To me, there is a condition named "disabled." I regard a 'D' specifically as a combat result code that may generate a disable.

There is at least a distinction in the type of disable for purposes of recovery from the condition.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:34 AM   #164
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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To me, there is a condition named "disabled." I regard a 'D' specifically as a combat result code that may generate a disable.

There is at least a distinction in the type of disable for purposes of recovery from the condition.
The distinction only exists with regards to how a unit recovers. How a unit is disabled does make a difference. While in a disabled state there is no distinction in how it handles combat results.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:01 AM   #165
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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There is at least a distinction in the type of disable for purposes of recovery from the condition.
That is true; you do have to know if it was combat or terrain related for purposes of recovery (terrain recovery is done via a roll, combat recovery is automatic), but for purposes of combat results (what you are asking about), they are identical.
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:13 AM   #166
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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The distinction only exists with regards to how a unit recovers. How a unit is disabled does make a difference. While in a disabled state there is no distinction in how it handles combat results.
How also matters for When. A little edge case I discovered while playtesting a scenario: It's entirely possible for a SHVY to disable itself during its owner's movement phase (due to suffering a 1-1 attack when it rams, instead of taking tread damage / being destroyed outright), which brought into clear focus why the wording is "after a full enemy turn" and not "lose your next turn".

If it was "lose your next turn", a SHVY that disables itself ramming is subject to two unanswered attacks by the opponent, not one (as is the intent of the rule -edit)
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:22 AM   #167
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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If it was "lose your next turn", a SHVY that disables itself ramming is subject to two unanswered attacks by the opponent, not one.
That's not just a SHVY ramming thing, that applies to ANY unit disabled during the owning player's turn. A unit disabled by terrain falls under the same category (i.e., becoming disabled during the owning player's movement phase).

The basic intent of a unit being disabled is to give the opposing player _one_ full turn to have an opportunity to take advantage of it being disabled (i.e., shoot at a disabled unit, which is an easier kill).
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Old 08-13-2018, 08:50 AM   #168
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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To me, there is a condition named "disabled." I regard a 'D' specifically as a combat result code that may generate a disable.
I can see where you are going with this, but you are over-thinking it. It is true that "a D" is a result on the CRT and does not strictly represent "disabled," but receiving a "D" results in the unit being disabled so the _effective_ equality of D = disabled exists.

Each attack is discreet. It's more about how an individual attack's results are applied to a unit in a particular state at the time of that attack. A unit that is undamaged that receives a D becomes disabled. That same unit (that is now disabled) is attacked again and receives a D result is destroyed. This is identical to the case where a unit that is already disabled is attacked.

The intent is that any disabled unit (regardless of how it was initially disabled) that receives a "D" on a combat roll is destroyed. The phrase "another D" is a shorthand for "a disabled unit receives a D result on the CRT," not literally only "a second D result on the CRT."

It seems the simplest fix to this is to replace "another" with "a"
A disabled unit cannot fire or move; turn the counter over. If it receives a D result while disabled, it is destroyed.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:40 AM   #169
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
That's not just a SHVY ramming thing, that applies to ANY unit disabled during the owning player's turn. A unit disabled by terrain falls under the same category (i.e., becoming disabled during the owning player's movement phase).

The basic intent of a unit being disabled is to give the opposing player _one_ full turn to have an opportunity to take advantage of it being disabled (i.e., shoot at a disabled unit, which is an easier kill).
[See below. I had it right, got confused by the correction, and made the problem worse by over-thinking it. This post has nothing of value.]
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:29 AM   #170
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Default Re: Official Rules Update and FAQ (Draft versions 1.01 - June 21)

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Sorry, should have specified that what I mentioned there is specific to "disabled by combat". Though now it does leave me wondering if Rams count as Combat or Movement for sake of clearly communicating with others...because you are making CRT rolls, but it's during the movement phase...
Movement is movement, and combat is combat. Rams happen during movement (even overrun rams are during movement), don't confuse the issue. :-)

It's actually irrelevant in any case. What's important is _when_ it occurs. Regardless of it being during your movement phase or your firing phase, it still happens during your _turn_. The only thing that matters is the "after a full turn" before it recovers. The net result is the same, even if you try to muddy the waters nitpicking over whether a ram is combat or not (which it isn't).
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