[LT] No More Nerf Armor

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Langy

Possibly, but that figure was for plate, which has higher DR per pound of weight than any of those. It should give DR 6 for a good portion of the body, a little less in certain areas like the hands that can't get normal full plate.

Hm. I feel like we're going in circles. My point is that DR 6 isn't enough. It gets penetrated all the time in our games. And even with uncovered hands and feet, you're already over 50 lbs if you have DR 6 plate on your torso, limbs, and head.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Then max human ST is 13/16. The increase in damage from ST 10 to 11 is unreasonably large.

This could work for me.

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Which is why it would be better to increase HP, armour DR, and firearms damage. It gives more scope at the bottom end of the scale for hand weapons. I'd like to see this fleshed out:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=119089

It would also make lower DR armour easier to model. Winter clothing, light leather armour, and maybe even human flesh would all be DR 1 for example.

This might be the perfect general solution. But I suspect it's too complex for my players to swallow at this point.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/...ry-part-1.html

A good read. Thanks.
_________________

Does no one have the concern that muscle powered weapons will do too little damage if the contribution of ST is reduced?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

The problem is the damage system, ST14 shouldn't do double damage compared to ST10.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Then max human ST is 13/16. The increase in damage from ST 10 to 11 is unreasonably large.

ST 14 is about twice as strong as ST 10. (10²=100; 14²=196.) Following the other GURPS sqrt(Energy) approach to damage that is found in projectiles, explosives, and post-Pyramid beam weapons, having ST 14 do 140% from ST10 would be more appropriate.

Another concern is that the maximum attribute limit for humans was originally set at 20 (except for ST, which can range significantly beyond 20 even for normal humans per B14). For a roughly 150-point or higher budget and [10/level], it's not unreasonable to see people buy ST to 15+ for dedicated fighters at least occasionally. Setting the human maximum to 13 main ST / 16 Lifting ST will result in a very narrow range, both in terms of points spent and in terms of differentiating characters.

ST (and HT) was already made cheaper compared to DX/IQ because its differences aren't all that impactful. Reducing the differences between ST levels further will make it a sort of 'all-or-nothing' attribute, with dedicated fighters always purchasing the maximum (ST13), and everybody else leaving it at 10 or lowering it to 8-9.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Edges

Hm. I feel like we're going in circles. My point is that DR 6 isn't enough. It gets penetrated all the time in our games. And even with uncovered hands and feet, you're already over 50 lbs if you have DR 6 plate on your torso, limbs, and head.

No, were not, if you want the standard damage system, then you don't want realism. The standard damage system should be thrown out the window, a new one that doesn't give this much damage should take place. Or, if you want to keep it, double DR of armor.
Now we don't run in circles, because we established what needs to be changed.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

ST 14 is about twice as strong as ST 10. (10²=100; 14²=196.) Following the other GURPS sqrt(Energy) approach to damage that is found in projectiles, explosives, and post-Pyramid beam weapons, having ST 14 do 140% from ST10 would be more appropriate.

That's why a multiplier would be better. Double ST? double damage.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

ST (and HT) was already made cheaper compared to DX/IQ because its differences aren't all that impactful. Reducing the differences between ST levels further will make it a sort of 'all-or-nothing' attribute, with dedicated fighters always purchasing the maximum (ST13), and everybody else leaving it at 10 or lowering it to 8-9.

At TL5- ST is very important, at TL6+ almost nobody cares, taking instead Lifting ST and HP only if possible.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

That's why a multiplier would be better. Double ST? double damage.

That runs into the problem of needing to differentiate between ST10 and ST11 etc., which is bad enough with Thrust only changing about every two levels. This does sound like an argument in favour of fully rescaling things, multiplying stuff by roughly 3.

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

At TL5- ST is very important, at TL6+ almost nobody cares, taking instead Lifting ST and HP only if possible.

At TL5- ST is important because it matters for getting through DR5-7 of enemy armour (more with magical DR, fantastic materials or LT armours). If you cap ST at 13, it will be an all-or-nothing attribute: ST-powered fighters will all have the same maximum ST13 [30] (if not at gamestart, then after earning more points). GURPS is considered more fine-grained than, say, WoD, by having average attributes at 10 instead of 2 (and thus allowing a step of +10% from the average instead of +50%); I see limiting the attribute range from norm to maximum being {100%, 110%, 120%, 130%} as taking the worst of both worlds: it loses both granularity (only 2 steps between the norm and the maximum) and breadth (only 30% difference between norm and maximum).

Side note: even though I originally recoiled from the idea with some sort of irrational fear, I occasionally wonder what would be if ST and damage were logarithmic, like the Speed/Range Table.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You can definitely get much higher DR than that in Low-Tech if you are willing to deal with weight, cost, and layering penalties. A heavy plate breastplate over a heavy mail haberk for example.

Is there historical support for this ever having been done?

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

And before you look at Strength damage, look at Strength values, too. What kind of opposition are they going against? Not every opponent is going to be a ST 14 warrior with a broadsword or battleaxe. The average person is average, and even the average fighter is usually going to be 11-12 tops. Sure, the PCs are going to meet plenty of non-average people ... but those are the ones most able to get through your defenses, too.

ST is very trainable. If you use your muscles regularly, they develop. It makes perfect sense that the average fighter should be ST 13 if well fed, or even ST 13 with +1 Striking ST.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I'll note that a lot of GURPS gets pretty cinematic pretty quick if you use basic attributes above 15.

ST has a completely different in-world demographic distribution, compared to IQ and DX, and arguably compared to HT too. ST 14 fighter NPCs shouldn't be super rare, and ST 18 ones shouldn't have continent-wide fame.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That runs into the problem of needing to differentiate between ST10 and ST11 etc., which is bad enough with Thrust only changing about every two levels. This does sound like an argument in favour of fully rescaling things, multiplying stuff by roughly 3.

My multiplier system does that, not at every level, but at different levels depending on your weapon.
Of course, doubling it would give you a better scale, tripling it would be even better, the bigger the numbers, bigger the scale, however, most people don't like very large numbers.
If you take a greatsword in my system, you have change at every ST level(except ST5 to ST6, but with other weapons this changes). Also remember that in it cutting does double damage, imp doesn't:
ST01 = 1d-4 cutting, 1d-4 imp
ST02 = 1d-3 cutting, 1d-3 imp
ST03 = 1d-3 cutting, 1d-2 imp
ST04 = 1d-2 cutting, 1d-1 imp
ST05 = 1d-1 cutting, 1d imp
ST06 = 1d-1 cutting, 1d imp
ST07 = 1d cutting, 1d+1 imp
ST08 = 1d cutting, 1d+2 imp
ST09 = 1d+1 cutting, 2d-1 imp
ST10 = 1d cutting, 2d imp
ST11 = 1d+1 cutting, 2d imp
ST12 = 1d+2 cutting, 2d+1 imp
ST13 = 1d+3 cutting, 2d+2 imp
ST14 = 2d cutting, 3d-1 imp
ST15 = 2d cutting, 3d imp
ST16 = 2d+1 cutting, 3d imp
ST17 = 2d+1 cutting, 3d+1 imp
ST18 = 2d+2 cutting, 3d+2 imp
ST19 = 2d+2 cutting, 4d-1 imp
ST20 = 2d+3 cutting, 4d imp

Even then, DR is a little low, but cleaving through armor is a LOT harder.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

At TL5- ST is important because it matters for getting through DR5-7 of enemy armour (more with magical DR, fantastic materials or LT armours). If you cap ST at 13, it will be an all-or-nothing attribute: ST-powered fighters will all have the same maximum ST13 [30] (if not at gamestart, then after earning more points). GURPS is considered more fine-grained than, say, WoD, by having average attributes at 10 instead of 2 (and thus allowing a step of +10% from the average instead of +50%); I see limiting the attribute range from norm to maximum being {100%, 110%, 120%, 130%} as taking the worst of both worlds: it loses both granularity (only 2 steps between the norm and the maximum) and breadth (only 30% difference between norm and maximum).

I'm not for capping ST at 13, in realistic games I can see ST going as high as 17 with no problems, and up to ST20 without a big fuss. The only problem is the standard muscle damage system, with I changed.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Side note: even though I originally recoiled from the idea with some sort of irrational fear, I occasionally wonder what would be if ST and damage were logarithmic, like the Speed/Range Table.

I think that would be a good option actually, since it's too expensive as it is now to build a hulk.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Which is why it would be better to increase HP, armour DR, and firearms damage. It gives more scope at the bottom end of the scale for hand weapons. I'd like to see this fleshed out:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=119089

It would also make lower DR armour easier to model. Winter clothing, light leather armour, and maybe even human flesh would all be DR 1 for example.

Increasing armour DR and HP values could be a good idea.

I'm stuck with a fairly coarse-grained AV scale in Sagatafl, because of the way the rest of the system works, but there are all sorts of reasons why it's nice to have a finer-grained scale. Not ultra-fine like RoleMaster (going from 0-20 for medieval armour), but just 50% or 100% as fine-grained as the one GRPS currently has.

For instance, as you say, defining Human skin as having actually some protective value. Even if it isn't much, relative to how much damage medieval weapons do, it's simulatively correct, as there are creatures that ought to have less natural DR than we do. Recognizing that heavy clothes afford some protection (at least against most medieval weapons).

I'm not suffering at my end, with the coarse-grained scale, but if it's feasible to make GURPS' DR scale more fine-grained, I'll say go for it.