[LT] No More Nerf Armor

[Edges]

I know this is a perennial topic. (It's a tangent on another thread right now). I'm just looking for some simple suggestions.

I keep hearing about how effective RL armor is on this forum. I use the LT rules and the "strong guy" on the scene (whether PC or NPC) usually has a 13-14 ST. But people get injured through armor on pretty much every hit.

I'd like to see armor be more realistically effective. What is the simplest fix? (I am not at present concerned with firearms).

[Langy]

How much armor does the strong guy have (what DR) and what's he being attacked with?

Realistically, low-tech armor isn't going to stop every single attack. It's not impenetrable, and you'll still be injured even though you're wearing it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Edges

I'd like to see armor be more realistically effective. What is the simplest fix? (I am not at present concerned with firearms).

First off are you using the Low-Tech blunt trauma rule for cutting damage?

[Kraydak]

Originally Posted by Edges

I know this is a perennial topic. (It's a tangent on another thread right now). I'm just looking for some simple suggestions.

I keep hearing about how effective RL armor is on this forum. I use the LT rules and the "strong guy" on the scene (whether PC or NPC) usually has a 13-14 ST. But people get injured through armor on pretty much every hit.

I'd like to see armor be more realistically effective. What is the simplest fix? (I am not at present concerned with firearms).

Nerf strength-based damage, as that is where the problem really lies. Drop swing damage to thrust, thrust to thrust-2, and tell the players to AoA (Strong) when they whine about not being able to get through armor. Remember than any weapon-vs-armor tests on youtube are NOT in combat conditions, and so should be assumed to be AoAs.

Hmm, you might need to nerf Strength based damage another point or two…. ST 11 thugs kicking someone on the ground will be doing 1d+1, forcing the first death check at about 5 stomps. And an AoA with a broadsword by a ST 11 warrior will be doing 1d+2 against mail.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Langy

How much armor does the strong guy have (what DR) and what's he being attacked with?

Realistically, low-tech armor isn't going to stop every single attack. It's not impenetrable, and you'll still be injured even though you're wearing it.

It's LT armor so people are pretty much wearing DR 2-6. And I'm talking about realistic, muscle-powered weapons wielded by people with ST 9-14. So damage is generally between d-3 and 2d+4. So average DR for an armored guy tends to be 3 or 4 and average damage for a fighter is around 2d-1. Once hit locations and wound modifiers come on, just about every hit hurts.

Descriptions on this forum of how effective RL armor is don't match what happens in our games. Armor is helping. But it's not the awesome stuff I keep hearing about.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

First off are you using the Low-Tech blunt trauma rule for cutting damage?

Yes.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Edges

It's LT armor so people are pretty much wearing DR 2-6. And I'm talking about realistic, muscle-powered weapons wielded by people with ST 9-14. So damage is generally between d-3 and 2d+4. So average DR for an armored guy tends to be 3 or 4 and average damage for a fighter is around 2d-1. Once hit locations and wound modifiers come on, just about every hit hurts.

Well, there's the problem. The armored guy isn't wearing enough armor. Stack on more, or else he is going to get hurt.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Edges

It's LT armor so people are pretty much wearing DR 2-6.

You can definitely get much higher DR than that in Low-Tech if you are willing to deal with weight, cost, and layering penalties. A heavy plate breastplate over a heavy mail haberk for example.

And I'm talking about realistic, muscle-powered weapons wielded by people with ST 9-14. So damage is generally between d-3 and 2d+4. So average DR for an armored guy tends to be 3 or 4 and average damage for a fighter is around 2d-1. Once hit locations and wound modifiers come on, just about every hit hurts.

ST-based damage isn't really based on anything and is too high relative to firearms (and therefore armor). It's too much of a pain to rescale for me to do it, but if I was going to I'd probably keep ST 10 the same with +1/-1 to thr at ST 1, ST 5, ST 15 and ST 20 and +1/-1 to SW at ST 1, ST 3, ST5, ST 8, ST 13, ST 15, ST 18 and ST 20 (giving 1d thr 2d sw at ST 20).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Langy

Well, there's the problem. The armored guy isn't wearing enough armor. Stack on more, or else he is going to get hurt.

Of course, that's solidly in the range DanHoward has characterized as being impervious to many threats. So if you're trying to fix the problem that it doesn't meet the expectations put about on the forum, upgrading to full body DR 9 is missing the point.

[gilbertocarlos]

The problem is the damage system, ST14 shouldn't do double damage compared to ST10.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by Langy

Well, there's the problem. The armored guy isn't wearing enough armor. Stack on more, or else he is going to get hurt.

I've heard fine mail touted as nearly uncuttable and medium plate and neigh impenetrable except by the very few weapons designed to have an AD. But those only have DR 4 and 6 respectively. They get punctured routinely in play even with the new blunt trauma rules.

Sure, I can tell my players to stack 60 - 100 lbs of armor on their characters and have them encounter NPCs with the same. But is that really what is being referred to when people around here keep saying how tough armor is?

In other words:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Of course, that's solidly in the range DanHoward has characterized as being impervious to many threats. So if you're trying to fix the problem that it doesn't meet the expectations put about on the forum, upgrading to full body DR 9 is missing the point.