05-19-2014, 06:20 AM | #41 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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I think you see this as a flaw, but I see it as recognition of a fact that certain weapon are similar enough to each other bit in form and use that experience in using one helps when using another. Defaults (of what ever degree and how ever many types) are a fundamental part of a skill, and relevant part of defining them. A broad sword may be as easy to learn as a Lance (DX/Average) but leaning a broad sword gives you grounding it wider range of weapons and techniques than learning the lance. (and IIRC you can use lance defaulting from Spear but not the other way round). |
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05-19-2014, 06:58 AM | #42 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
In most cases this will be double defaulting, which should disallow it. I can't recall if that's ever been actually stated, though.
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05-19-2014, 11:03 AM | #43 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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In 3e, as per 3e p. MA42, Techniques* are one of the special exceptions to the rules against double defaults. This makes a lot of sense when you remember how GURPS defines "Skills" and "Techniques", and that something like Feint is a Technique. If one doesn't allow double defaults you can't Feint with a weapon for which you have no official training! Techniques are specialized uses of a Skill that either actually are or at least are plausible to "train up" separately from the rest of the Skill. The default level of a Technique shows how well it can be performed with just the general body of knowledge supplied with the Skill... so unless the Technique is something that the person using the Skill at default shouldn't know exists (that is entirely up to specifics, not generalities), they should indeed be able to "double default" it. *referred to as Maneuvers in the text, per the 3e rules
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05-19-2014, 01:55 PM | #44 | |||
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
Correction: I checked again and my previous statement that you can use techniques without points in a skill is in error. RAW while some techniques offer buying up penalties that can be attempted without the technique and techniques are allowed to double default from other techniques you need at least one point to gain access to them.
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I said Quote:
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So what were you even trying to say? You have abandoned there being a cost difference and you aren't trying to defend skill utility costing. |
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05-19-2014, 11:44 PM | #45 | |
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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1) The descriptions of Techniques (B.229) and Prerequisites (B.169) indicate that techniques cannot be improved unless you have at least one point in the skill. Not only does that not say techniques cannot be used, it implies they can be, as it would be redundant to say you can't improve something you can't even use. 2) "[A technique] is a specific action covered by the parent skill, studied on its own." (B.229, para 2) In other words, unimproved techniques are simply applications of the base skill, and often very central ones (e.g., Feint). |
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05-20-2014, 01:20 AM | #46 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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Basic says "If you have even one point in a skill, you may use all that skill's techniques at default." (B230) Kromm weighs in with posts such as http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...64&postcount=6 As I mentioned before certain applications of a skill (for example kicking) are available as options as well as techniques which can be improved. |
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05-20-2014, 02:33 AM | #47 | |||
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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Since techniques are not skills, the rule against double defaults for skills does not apply. Quote:
1) "To study the advanced skill, you must have at least one point in the prerequisite skill." (B.169) 2) "you must have at least one point in a skill before you can improve its techniques." (B.229) The above quote suggests that "prerequisite" means the skill cannot be used at all, even at default, if the prereq skill is only known at default. However, B.173 indicates that any skill with a default "is something that everybody can do...a little bit" with "no training", and skills that cannot be used at all without training have no defaults. With that approach, a hypothetical IQ 20 omni-knowledgeable super-genius would have defaults that made him an expert in every law, every science, every music...but could not even attempt the simplest engineering feat, due to lacking the Math(Applied) prereq, despite being able to function as a Math(Applied) expert! That creates two very different classes of skills, and removes a tool for allowing GURPS to elegantly model certain archetypes (e.g., Doc Savage) for no apparent benefit. However, Kromm claims that his forum posts override the published books, and enough people here agree that there's little point continuing a discussion when it devolves into a game of "find the Kromm quote", so I'm done. |
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05-20-2014, 03:19 AM | #48 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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Also it is my second point that is most significant. Techniques are weirdly written and constantly assume that you will be buying them up rather than presenting the technique things and then presenting the rules for buying them up but while "you may use" is not perfectly clear absent any specific statement of being able to use techniques specifically and not options which also exist as techniques it is reasonable to interpret it as ruling out untrained use. Well it's up to you but I don't think that's necessary. I supplied the quote among other things because I'm willing to discuss it in terms of written rules as well as forum clarifications. Last edited by Sindri; 05-20-2014 at 03:23 AM. |
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05-20-2014, 03:24 AM | #49 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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Basically the system recognised that if you good with broadswords you also be pretty good with a wider range of other weapons that if you good with lance. This has the effect of mitigating having so many weapons skills to spend points in, because the effect is points spent in broadswords is also points spent on several other skills as well. |
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05-20-2014, 03:30 AM | #50 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Re: Capping Skill Default Levels
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defaults, house rules |
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