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Old 04-28-2018, 12:43 AM   #11
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Actually, it's pretty trivial to cover at low TL as long as you're living at a status level that's lower than your wealth level.

Debt 20, at TL 3 normal wealth, is $200/month. CoL at status 0 is $600, CoL at status -1 is $300, standard income is $700, so by living like a miser you can cover your debt and still have $200/month in disposable income. This gives you the penalties of living below your status (B265), but that's not -20 in disads, it's not even -5 in disads (being an actual status -1 would be -5).

Then we get into adventuring income. Let's say four characters each have a debt of $100/months. Character A is struggling, so that is a [-20] debt for him. Character B is average wealth, so [-10]. Character C is comfortable, so [-5]. Character D is [-2]. Now, if they're actually working at jobs that match their wealth level, those relative values might be fair -- but for adventurers, unless your adventuring party splits loot based on the PCs wealth level, the real disadvantage is probably similar for all four characters.
Your proof can be easily reversed by taking TL9 instead of TL3 (income $3,600, debt 20 being $6,000; even not paying CoL at all won't allow one to pay the debt every month). Also, even at lower TL, nobles being in debt trying very hard to keep living at their Status seems like a classic situation, so surely the low-CoL way out isn't as trivial a way out as you make it out to be.
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Old 04-28-2018, 02:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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Your proof can be easily reversed by taking TL9 instead of TL3 (income $3,600, debt 20 being $6,000; even not paying CoL at all won't allow one to pay the debt every month). Also, even at lower TL, nobles being in debt trying very hard to keep living at their Status seems like a classic situation, so surely the low-CoL way out isn't as trivial a way out as you make it out to be.
That's mostly about the CoL rules being busted. A lot of the GURPS rules for wealth are terrible.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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Debt, like all the money-based advantages and disadvantages, works poorly in games where the PCs can gain significant wealth from adventuring.
This matches my experience. One of the characters in World of D'y'r't had Debt to represent his pious donations to his Church (possibly not the best way to represent that but I wasn't spending a lot of time sweating details then).

The campaign then began adapting old D&D nodules with an exchange rate of 1 SP equaling 1 Gurps $. The big payoffs in GPs at the ends of the modules (and not the literal "kill everyone you meet and take their stuff") just swamped any concerns related to realistic economics.

This may be problem with importing another games bad economics to multiply Gurps' problems with economics but that other game has set expectations.

I actually haven't seen a game where the Wealth/Jobs/COL rules made any sense.
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Old 04-28-2018, 09:44 AM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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I actually haven't seen a game where the Wealth/Jobs/COL rules made any sense.
Me neither with the possible exceptions of games where they are simplified heavily and not really used. (like the basic action rules where all gear is mission gear and you get $2000/month for incidentals)

In my own games I tend to use my own systems so they at least make sense to me.. :)

In my current game as example I use 5 points/wealth level with each level being one step on the speed/range chart both for income and expected costs to maintain the corresponding status.
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:24 AM   #15
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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. The campaign then began adapting old D&D nodules with an exchange rate of 1 SP equaling 1 Gurps $. The big payoffs in GPs at the ends of the modules (an
The last D&D campaign I ran I changed rewards down one level and made the SP the default currency piece in the campaign, but kept costs the same...

...so reward GPs became SPs, PPs became GPs... but a short sword still cost 10 gold or whatever.

The only uses I’ve seen for Debt are for the ship loan in Traveller, really low levels to represent student loan payments... and one guy who used it to represent his mortgage.

The math also doesn’t work out for any realistic loan using a Debt. You also can’t take out a loan for cash and have reasonable payments. At TL-8 10 CP gets you $20,000 to buy a car. If you offset that with 10 PTs of Debt your car payments are $2000/ mo on that car and you can never pay it off.
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

I haven't used the Debt Disadvantage yet, but I like it. I mean, really like it. It is an almost literal "point loan" in my eyes, and I'm in favor of such a thing when (like everything else in GURPS) it is used to enrich the gameplay experience. Or maybe I'm getting it wrong? To get rid of debt requires not only making monetary payments but ultimately spending the CP needed to buy off the trait, right? I've had some GM's that allowed a player to go into "Point debt" for something, creating a literal point loan, but it always ended up messy no matter how much both player and GM tried to make it work out. Yes, that is anecdotal and doesn't prove it could never work out for better GM's and players.

Anyway, just having your characters income docked and dealing with any social ramifications of the debt seems like a good motivator for roleplay and for gaming, which is what a good Disadvantage does, right? If the player needs or wants to chill for a bit, we have a solid idea of how the trait will inconvenience (at low levels) or threaten (at higher levels) them.

Of course, as tanksoldier just pointed out, sometimes the math gets wonky, which reminded me that I would love to see a Modifier to represent both more and less stubborn debt. You know me, I like to be able to easily play around with the "pieces" of a trait. Being able to shift the money requirement to a time requirement, maybe even an HP or FP requirement, would be nice as well, but at least being able to say "Okay, we are not having a campaign where money comes easy, so if you want, you can take Debt with a -80% modifier if it truly is just a fiscal burden." or something like that.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:25 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

Debt seems to be a point of contention between the simulationist and gamist camps, judging by the conversation so far. Being of the gamist camp, I feel that Debt does a good job being a gameable approximation for some games, usually in the High- and Ultra-Tech ranges I tend to play in. I don't use it to represent college loans, mortgages, and car payments; those I generally just roll into the CoL (itself mostly an approximation anyway) and call it a day. Debt is for the Big Stuff that directly impacts the game: the smuggler owing the crime lord for the drugs he dumped overboard when the Coast Guard pulled him over, etc.

IMO, Debt as a Disadvantage is as much a plot hook as it is a reduction in monthly income. YMMV, of course.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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Debt seems to be a point of contention between the simulationist and gamist camps, judging by the conversation so far.
The primary problem with debt is gamist -- it's perfectly realistic and playable, it's just priced wrong. The easy fix is to just junk it and replace it with a Duty (repay debt), with frequency representing how often it forces you to do something adventuring-relevant.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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The primary problem with debt is gamist -- it's perfectly realistic and playable, it's just priced wrong. The easy fix is to just junk it and replace it with a Duty (repay debt), with frequency representing how often it forces you to do something adventuring-relevant.
That seems like a very different trait, which performs a very different functions and describes a different kind of character.
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Old 04-29-2018, 02:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Debt

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That seems like a very different trait, which performs a very different functions and describes a different kind of character.
The people talking about RP uses for debt are basically treating it as an involuntary duty.
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