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Old 01-09-2014, 07:16 AM   #1
vicky_molokh
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Default Ziusudra / Nyx questions

Greetings, all!

So, we have a Ziusudra Nyx in our party now. Chargen got handled rather liberally, but I wonder what the intended answers to these questions are.
  1. Ziusudras have both Extended Lifespan 1 and Early Maturation 1. Anyone wonder why Early Maturation is set to one level? THS explicitly says to use TL10 for the biomodifications available in the setting (with the occasional TL11 one here and there), and TL10 allowed Early Maturation 3 in 3e, and allows Early Maturation 2 in 4e. Ziusudras are parahumans, and Early Maturation isn't even a species modification; why not go all the way? Combined with reduced sleep, faster maturation would be awesome.
    (Apparently we overlooked the fact that the two ageing multipliers stack, so now there might be a need to change some things retroactively, at least until nobody saw him.)
  2. The original Nyx template had Reduced Sleep (not Less Sleep), which allowed them to get by on 8 hours of sleep per week. In Changing Times, they got nerfed down to Less Sleep 4, which is both (a) less than Neo-Horses get in 4e and (b) less than brainbugs can provide in either edition. Kromm said that Doesn't Sleep is Less Sleep 8 + No Dreams [-1] + Immunity to sleep afflictions. So why didn't Nyxes just get 7 levels of Less Sleep? I mean, it seems to be their main schtick, just like Pandoras/Sigmas' ETS, or Metanoias' Talents. (Our GM okayed the 7-level solution for the PC in question.)
  3. I heard that Ziusudra is a popular choice among players. Is it, in your experience? They sure look good in a world where templates cost money, not points, for a parent choosing what template to give to children.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Greetings, all!
Hey.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
So, we have a Ziusudra Nyx in our party now. Chargen got handled rather liberally, but I wonder what the intended answers to these questions are.[list=1][*]Ziusudras have both Extended Lifespan 1 and Early Maturation 1. Anyone wonder why Early Maturation is set to one level? THS explicitly says to use TL10 for the biomodifications available in the setting (with the occasional TL11 one here and there), and TL10 allowed Early Maturation 3 in 3e, and allows Early Maturation 2 in 4e. Ziusudras are parahumans, and Early Maturation isn't even a species modification; why not go all the way? Combined with reduced sleep, faster maturation would be awesome.
(Apparently we overlooked the fact that the two ageing multipliers stack, so now there might be a need to change some things retroactively, at least until nobody saw him.)
WAG: Ziusudras are top-of-the-line in every way. This includes simulation of real-but-awesome children, complete with maturation-rate. Only a 4th-wave plebe would pay extra for a child who is near-perfect but grows up faster than they can enjoy it.

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The original Nyx template had Reduced Sleep (not Less Sleep), which allowed them to get by on 8 hours of sleep per week. In Changing Times, they got nerfed down to Less Sleep 4, which is both (a) less than Neo-Horses get in 4e and (b) less than brainbugs can provide in either edition. Kromm said that Doesn't Sleep is Less Sleep 8 + No Dreams [-1] + Immunity to sleep afflictions. So why didn't Nyxes just get 7 levels of Less Sleep? I mean, it seems to be their main schtick, just like Pandoras/Sigmas' ETS, or Metanoias' Talents. (Our GM okayed the 7-level solution for the PC in question.)
Good question. If they're supposed to almost never sleep, ever, a slightly-limited Doesn't Sleep seems like the better solution IMHO.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I heard that Ziusudra is a popular choice among players. Is it, in your experience? They sure look good in a world where templates cost money, not points, for a parent choosing what template to give to children.
0 for 3 in our only theoretical THS game so far (2 Bioroids, 1 AI).
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:32 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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. Ziusudras are parahumans, and Early Maturation isn't even a species modification; why not go all the way? Combined with reduced sleep, faster maturation would be awesome.
[*]The original Nyx template had Reduced Sleep (not Less Sleep), which allowed them to get by on 8 hours of sleep per week. In Changing Times, they got nerfed down to Less Sleep 4, which is both (a) less than Neo-Horses get in 4e and (b) less than brainbugs can provide in either edition.!
Having children who matured in 4 and 1/2 years might be awesome and it might breed confused 4 year-old brats in grown up bodies or maybe just psychopaths. TS biotech is often conservative in many areas. Te Herakles doesn't even max out a simple thing like ST.

The Nyx in Changing Times has only Less Sleep 4 because that's the most that's allowed in the Human Gengeneering charts in Bio-tech for 4e.. That's down from 5 levels in 3e and I can't even tell you why that is.
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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Having children who matured in 4 and 1/2 years might be awesome and it might breed confused 4 year-old brats in grown up bodies or maybe just psychopaths. TS biotech is often conservative in many areas. Te Herakles doesn't even max out a simple thing like ST.
First, adding 2 levels of Early Maturation would result in becoming mature in 9 years, not 4, since they already have Extended Lifespan. (If the Early Maturation is supposed to override instead of multiply ageing thresholds, then I kinda get the 9-y.o.-mature variant as being something in line with a second-newest model or the like.

Second, why would you think they'd be 4-year-old brats? Early Maturation includes both the physical and the mental side of things.

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The Nyx in Changing Times has only Less Sleep 4 because that's the most that's allowed in the Human Gengeneering charts in Bio-tech for 4e.. That's down from 5 levels in 3e and I can't even tell you why that is.
Sure, but remember that THS canonically has bits of TL11 and 12 here and there. 4e has Doesn't Sleep at TL11, and TL10 $5 pills that allow one to get a full night of sleep in 2 hours per night (which are, strangely, mentioned but not statted in the TS core book); it seems like the 8-hours-per-week Nyx is exactly the sort of advancement where THS is above TL10 in biotech. Besides, Less Sleep 5 is still canonically available in two forms as of Changing Times (one for the neohorse, one through brainbugs).
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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First, adding 2 levels of Early Maturation would result in becoming mature in 9 years, not 4, since they already have Extended Lifespan. (If the Early Maturation is supposed to override instead of multiply ageing thresholds, then I kinda get the 9-y.o.-mature variant as being something in line with a second-newest model or the like.
Which is the point, I think. The template is designed to live for a long time; early maturation was not a goal it was designed for. Early Maturation as a GURPS-advantage is there purely to balance the GURPS effects of Extended Lifespan, to allow them to mature at the normal human rate.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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  1. I heard that Ziusudra is a popular choice among players. Is it, in your experience? They sure look good in a world where templates cost money, not points, for a parent choosing what template to give to children.
At a guess, the problem with the Zuisudra is that it's boring, and if you're paying points, you can just buy all that stuff normally.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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First, adding 2 levels of Early Maturation would result in becoming mature in 9 years, not 4, since they already have Extended Lifespan. (If the Early Maturation is supposed to override instead of multiply ageing thresholds, then I kinda get the 9-y.o.-mature variant as being something in line with a second-newest model or the like.

Second, why would you think they'd be 4-year-old brats? Early Maturation includes both the physical and the mental side of things.
No, see CI p.63 (3e). Each level of Early Maturation halved the time it took to reach maturity.18->9->4.5->2.25 for 3 levels while Extended Lifespan I doubled all aging Thresholds Whichever way you do the calc ([18x2]/8 or simply 2.25 x 2)it's 4.5 years.

As to why using Early Maturation might end up buggy just because you can cram 18 years of nature into a shorter period doesn't mean you can do 18 years of nurture that way. For a species that depends on learned behavior the way humans do a reduced learning period could be disastrous. You'd have them starting high school when they were 6 months old and even physically only 2 years old.

As to the sleeping, 3 hours/night is natural for unmodified horses. That doesn't mean you can modify a parahuman to reach that level. Drugs aren't necessarily built from the character creation system either. There's no Ad that will let you heal 1 HP per 4 hours yet that's how Ascepaline works.

Also, give me credit for being literal when I explain things about TS sometimes. I know from the Changing Times playtest that the Nyx were modified from 3e stats for compatibility with Bio-tech for 4e. I was there and that's why. Fidelity at all costs was not a primary goal.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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No, see CI p.63 (3e). Each level of Early Maturation halved the time it took to reach maturity.18->9->4.5->2.25 for 3 levels while Extended Lifespan I doubled all aging Thresholds Whichever way you do the calc ([18x2]/8 or simply 2.25 x 2)it's 4.5 years.
Ah, you went for the whole 3 levels (the 3e allowance at TL10). Got it.

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As to why using Early Maturation might end up buggy just because you can cram 18 years of nature into a shorter period doesn't mean you can do 18 years of nurture that way. For a species that depends on learned behavior the way humans do a reduced learning period could be disastrous. You'd have them starting high school when they were 6 months old and even physically only 2 years old.
Of course, Transhuman Space clearly does already have the maturity tech to make a brain that will accept the amount of knowledge required for maturity in a span of something like 6 weeks (plus whatever is spent on actual skills in the GURPS sense). Why shouldn't Early Maturation exclude the nurture part of maturation? It's not like maturation-nurture includes skill points - those are another matter.

Also, Nyxes, assuming the original sleep cycle, can easily double the amount of learning they can do in a week.

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As to the sleeping, 3 hours/night is natural for unmodified horses. That doesn't mean you can modify a parahuman to reach that level.
Except that the canonically can, according to Transhuman Space. /me proceeds to finish the paragraph, then read the one below, but leaves the text as-written.

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Also, give me credit for being literal when I explain things about TS sometimes. I know from the Changing Times playtest that the Nyx were modified from 3e stats for compatibility with Bio-tech for 4e. I was there and that's why. Fidelity at all costs was not a primary goal.
Ah. So my impression about the bits of Heavy Techbook Overhaul in Changing Times weren't an illusion.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:57 PM   #9
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Ah. So my impression about the bits of Heavy Techbook Overhaul in Changing Times weren't an illusion.
Eh, no. It was closer to your open-ended techbook revision.

The Nyx sleep cycle wasn't considered particularly important. Certainly not enough to merit rulesbook gymnastics to preserve. Reduced Sleep was biologically odd anyway.
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Ziusudra / Nyx questions

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Having children who matured in 4 and 1/2 years might be awesome and it might breed confused 4 year-old brats in grown up bodies or maybe just psychopaths. TS biotech is often conservative in many areas. The Herakles doesn't even max out a simple thing like ST.
I agree that that does seem tricky and require at least some extended attention and care. Unless you're basically programming a preconstructed persona complete with memories into the subject. There's more to "maturity" than skills and knowledge. Nurturing, interaction and just life experience are components of a full mature human being. You could end up with very bland, similar personalities or essentially very well behaved but effective children in adult bodies with adult drives and a toddler's experience and understanding of social interaction and the world outside of what they've been programmed with.

I guess you could have the subject spend those years in a VR world, run at very high speed... but even if that's possible it would still be essentially giving them a largely preprogrammed personality, like a bioroid. But that might not be an issue to their creator/parents.

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